I've been doing some soul-searching the last couple days. I have a friendship where the dynamic just aint working anymore. I've been terribly co-dependent. Always trying to rescue, ease his financial situation, and basically just give, give, give. I have had a nagging feeling for awhile now but only right now have I decided to put the words on "paper". As I said, this dynamic isn't working for me anymore. And I shudder to admit that I have almost wanted him to stay struggling so I can feel "better than" him and that "taking care" of diverts my attention. It is easier to point out his faults, flaws, and inadequecies than look at my stuff. It is a friendship I'd be sad to see go but I can't keep doing what I've been doing (ha, and expecting different results). Lately, I thought I was doing so good...not giving him money, not letting him shower at my place b/c his shower doesn't work, and not emotionally rescuing him. But I did buy him smokes and he said he'd buy me a pack. Today I asked for the pack of smokes ("oh yea, lisa, you are standing up for yourself and asking for what he said he'd do") and as soon as I did (via text message), I ashamed for asking. He never responded to my text so I've been sitting here beating myself up for bringing it up. It is ridiculous how such meaningless, silly things can take hold of my thoughts.
So I've decided to bring this to the group. I trust in the program, the steps, in how it works...I know that through step work I will be able to address my co-dependency. Iam really just seeking other people's ESH in regards to co-dependency.
Zipper,
Pick up the book "Codependent No More" by Melodie Beattie. It's a great read and it will explain alot for you. It also helps you to set boundaries until you quit making bad decisions.
I didn't even realize that I was a codie until I read it. You already know what you are doing so that is half the battle.
It's like a kid having a tantrum. Until you stand your ground he will keep doing what he is doing. Why would he change??? He gets what he wants from you so there isn't a reason to change up.
Good luck and keep up the good work. Have a great weekend.
Pick up the book "Codependent No More" by Melodie Beattie. It's a great read and it will explain alot for you. It also helps you to set boundaries until you quit making bad decisions.
I didn't even realize that I was a codie until I read it. You already know what you are doing so that is half the battle.
It's like a kid having a tantrum. Until you stand your ground he will keep doing what he is doing. Why would he change??? He gets what he wants from you so there isn't a reason to change up.
Good luck and keep up the good work. Have a great weekend.
Hi zipper,
Good for you, spotting this. I used to struggle with the idea that helping others could be an illness....after all, I don't agree that every act of kindness or self-sacrifice is a sign of co-dependency. We don't condemn Jesus or Ghandi or Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela as spiritually unaware or emotionally immature? The Good Samaritan did good.....
......nowaday, I feel my codependent bits are like my use of alcohol.....wheras for a lot of people giving and kindness and self-sacrifice doesn't have any negative issues surrounding it....they do it for the thing itself as an act of love and a way of expressing their humanity....it's who they are.....and who I am....but my codependent bits are about my buried (unconscous) motives/intentions......I think for me it is/was/is a way of trying to get the nurturing and support and love I have always wanted (because I obviously don't DESERVE any unless I earn it, do I? lol).....so it's kinda....IF I do THIS, then they will do THAT....and if they DON'T do that then I have to try harder.....until they SHOW me they love me - or until, if I choose another alcoholic, I frazzle on a grill of my own choosing.....lol...
Oh, and my all-time movie hero has always been Shane....tried to avoid violence, didn't cheat on his friend to get the girl, HAD to kill the bad guy to save his friend and save them all, probably got killed hisself....what little boy could refuse that script? lol....I can't remember if he rode a white horse but I remember The Lone Ranger did....and Knights in shining armour, of course....what little boy doesn't want to be a hero to the women in his life?
Except I'm not a little boy and real women don't need heroes....do they.....(mmmm...got to wink at that one....and winking is such a boyish thing...lol...)...don't the women always fall into the hero's arms at the end? Isn't gratitude the key to love and...shhhh...sex?....lol....lots of deep issues here...lol...where are Frazier and Niles when you need them?
So for me it's about figuring out my motives.....and doing the next right thing as my HP guides me...
I feel, right now, that for me, it's just a different aspect of the same dis-ease that led me to alcohol.....I'm a child in pain, seeking comfort....and I need to remember that ain't gonna get much lasting comfort either of those ways....
My guess is that if, for me, the dis-ease is the same the cure is the same....I've seen quite a few people in AA AND Al-anon, and the route is two-way....but if I'm not in a relationship with an addict, simply working the AA programme will remove the issues at the root of my self-defeating fears, attitudes and behaviour.
Again, good for you spotting this! And thanks for the opportunity to reflect....very timely for me this morning.
Have a wonderful day.
Martin
Good for you, spotting this. I used to struggle with the idea that helping others could be an illness....after all, I don't agree that every act of kindness or self-sacrifice is a sign of co-dependency. We don't condemn Jesus or Ghandi or Martin Luther King or Nelson Mandela as spiritually unaware or emotionally immature? The Good Samaritan did good.....
......nowaday, I feel my codependent bits are like my use of alcohol.....wheras for a lot of people giving and kindness and self-sacrifice doesn't have any negative issues surrounding it....they do it for the thing itself as an act of love and a way of expressing their humanity....it's who they are.....and who I am....but my codependent bits are about my buried (unconscous) motives/intentions......I think for me it is/was/is a way of trying to get the nurturing and support and love I have always wanted (because I obviously don't DESERVE any unless I earn it, do I? lol).....so it's kinda....IF I do THIS, then they will do THAT....and if they DON'T do that then I have to try harder.....until they SHOW me they love me - or until, if I choose another alcoholic, I frazzle on a grill of my own choosing.....lol...
Oh, and my all-time movie hero has always been Shane....tried to avoid violence, didn't cheat on his friend to get the girl, HAD to kill the bad guy to save his friend and save them all, probably got killed hisself....what little boy could refuse that script? lol....I can't remember if he rode a white horse but I remember The Lone Ranger did....and Knights in shining armour, of course....what little boy doesn't want to be a hero to the women in his life?
Except I'm not a little boy and real women don't need heroes....do they.....(mmmm...got to wink at that one....and winking is such a boyish thing...lol...)...don't the women always fall into the hero's arms at the end? Isn't gratitude the key to love and...shhhh...sex?....lol....lots of deep issues here...lol...where are Frazier and Niles when you need them?
So for me it's about figuring out my motives.....and doing the next right thing as my HP guides me...
I feel, right now, that for me, it's just a different aspect of the same dis-ease that led me to alcohol.....I'm a child in pain, seeking comfort....and I need to remember that ain't gonna get much lasting comfort either of those ways....
My guess is that if, for me, the dis-ease is the same the cure is the same....I've seen quite a few people in AA AND Al-anon, and the route is two-way....but if I'm not in a relationship with an addict, simply working the AA programme will remove the issues at the root of my self-defeating fears, attitudes and behaviour.
Again, good for you spotting this! And thanks for the opportunity to reflect....very timely for me this morning.
Have a wonderful day.
Martin
Thank you Valerie...I think my sister may have the book.
Martin, thank you for your beautiful and poignant post. (((Thank you))).
Martin, thank you for your beautiful and poignant post. (((Thank you))).
Gidday Zipper
I grew uo surrounded by hurt and violence and it felt normal or should i say i felt more comfortable in a situation of being on edge and awaiting the inevitable violence and i was really uncomfortable if i was somewhere and people were all huggy friendly etc but as i got older if i found myself in a tense situation i would try and people please or be the peace maker and in doing so i tended to let myself down in order to make others happy and then i could have more to drink over
A major part of emerging from the cocoon of recovery (early days) and into the warmth of recovery and confidence growing is to start standing up for myself and this is hard for someone who has always been the victim or the martyr, i dont always get it right but at least i can say sorry now and i get it right more than i get it wrong as my intuition grows.
I used to say what i knew people wanted to hear as it sounded good now i try to do all i say as it feels good to me
Your friend shouldnt have a problem with the ciggys and if he has then maybe he should look for another person to steal energy from, remeber alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful so it doesnt want you to get confidant or proud or humble because it wants you to go into your head negatively so it has a chance and you are beating it down by sharing youre E.S.H.
Good on ya Zipper and keep believing in your self as your higher power always has and will, keep building the beautiful person that is within you and that emerges one day at a time more and more in recovery, because we all owe ourselves the chance to see who we really are and that is good people:)
light and love Zac
I grew uo surrounded by hurt and violence and it felt normal or should i say i felt more comfortable in a situation of being on edge and awaiting the inevitable violence and i was really uncomfortable if i was somewhere and people were all huggy friendly etc but as i got older if i found myself in a tense situation i would try and people please or be the peace maker and in doing so i tended to let myself down in order to make others happy and then i could have more to drink over
A major part of emerging from the cocoon of recovery (early days) and into the warmth of recovery and confidence growing is to start standing up for myself and this is hard for someone who has always been the victim or the martyr, i dont always get it right but at least i can say sorry now and i get it right more than i get it wrong as my intuition grows.
I used to say what i knew people wanted to hear as it sounded good now i try to do all i say as it feels good to me
Your friend shouldnt have a problem with the ciggys and if he has then maybe he should look for another person to steal energy from, remeber alcohol is cunning, baffling and powerful so it doesnt want you to get confidant or proud or humble because it wants you to go into your head negatively so it has a chance and you are beating it down by sharing youre E.S.H.
Good on ya Zipper and keep believing in your self as your higher power always has and will, keep building the beautiful person that is within you and that emerges one day at a time more and more in recovery, because we all owe ourselves the chance to see who we really are and that is good people:)
light and love Zac
I love the way this works.
Zac, thanks for sharing your ESH. Your post spoke to me. For the first time in 45 years I "found" myself in a conversation with my mother two days ago about the vicious physical abuse her friend dished out to her son in our house...he was a brave little 4 year old and he simply wouldn't cry....except of course she just kept hitting him harder and harder until he did, her arm way above her shoulder and landing with all the force this ? 15 stone woman could muster, lifting him off the floor and sending him six inches to a foot sideways with the impact. He;d stare at her, his face red, jaw clamped...so she'd hit him again...and again...until he broke...my mother's mask slipped and we were in a time machine...it was 45 years ago and this lovely, gentle old lady snarled at me that some kids had an attitude and needed to be told....I have AA and Al-anon and counselling - and probably not having alcohol in my system for weeks - to thank for the fact I could calmly and assertively state my view as she raged about cheeky children who wouldn't do what they were told, rather than becoming angry with this dear, fragile woman who loves me and is proud of me and so concerned for me at the moment (for only the second time in my life I heard that concern last week). We both knew what we were really talking about...not her friend and her son, but my mum and me....
And later that day my dad chastised me for being so rude as to interrupt him and before I could self-censor myself I simply said "Dad, you do it to me all the time."
Somewhere inside me a four-year-old cheered....it's funny, for the first twelve years or so of my life I was terrified of them and after that I became terrified of breaking them.....either way, fear has ruled my relationships with the people who gave me life, and that's a shame....because I know we love each other too....I'm so grateful they're still here to make this peace in an emotional war we've never acknowledged.
Peacemaker? Goodness I can relate to that....everywhen and where.....it's taken enormous effort for me to become assertive....an Everest. And last week I reached the peak....simply speaking the truth to my mum and dad.
Thanks for opening my mind to that train of thought zac. I love it when you share.
Zac, thanks for sharing your ESH. Your post spoke to me. For the first time in 45 years I "found" myself in a conversation with my mother two days ago about the vicious physical abuse her friend dished out to her son in our house...he was a brave little 4 year old and he simply wouldn't cry....except of course she just kept hitting him harder and harder until he did, her arm way above her shoulder and landing with all the force this ? 15 stone woman could muster, lifting him off the floor and sending him six inches to a foot sideways with the impact. He;d stare at her, his face red, jaw clamped...so she'd hit him again...and again...until he broke...my mother's mask slipped and we were in a time machine...it was 45 years ago and this lovely, gentle old lady snarled at me that some kids had an attitude and needed to be told....I have AA and Al-anon and counselling - and probably not having alcohol in my system for weeks - to thank for the fact I could calmly and assertively state my view as she raged about cheeky children who wouldn't do what they were told, rather than becoming angry with this dear, fragile woman who loves me and is proud of me and so concerned for me at the moment (for only the second time in my life I heard that concern last week). We both knew what we were really talking about...not her friend and her son, but my mum and me....
And later that day my dad chastised me for being so rude as to interrupt him and before I could self-censor myself I simply said "Dad, you do it to me all the time."
Somewhere inside me a four-year-old cheered....it's funny, for the first twelve years or so of my life I was terrified of them and after that I became terrified of breaking them.....either way, fear has ruled my relationships with the people who gave me life, and that's a shame....because I know we love each other too....I'm so grateful they're still here to make this peace in an emotional war we've never acknowledged.
Peacemaker? Goodness I can relate to that....everywhen and where.....it's taken enormous effort for me to become assertive....an Everest. And last week I reached the peak....simply speaking the truth to my mum and dad.
Thanks for opening my mind to that train of thought zac. I love it when you share.
Thank you for Zac and Martin....sure seems that another commonality of alcoholics/addicts/codependents is not feeling safe, especially through our formative years. I truly believe that in some form or another, we all, as human beings, have felt unsafe, have been abused, or mistreated. It just may seem more apparent to my cohorts because we, as alcoholics/addicts, are very sensitive. Who knows...but my point is that in coming to this board or going to meetings or just talking singularly with another alcoholic/addict/co-dependent I am reminded that I am not unique, that some times bad things do happen to unsuspecting, undeserving, good people...because this is life. None of us are exempt. Life is about learning, or if you are like me and need to hit my head on the cement a few (hundred) times ;), relearning and regrowing. Thanks again for your input on the thread. I appreciate it.
Yes,
I to needed to hit my head on the cement a few thousand times, or is that a million times.We alcoholics/addicts probably are a group of overly sensitive people who thought and felt that at one time the best way to solve are problems in life was to drink/use. Thankfully, for some of us we've found new daily solutions to living life on life's terms.
I feel what makes us stand out from normal society is the fact we tried to solve our problems and change the way we feel with booze, drugs, food, etc. The normies if there is such a thing didn't go to the extreme lengths of abusing booze, drugs or other self harming addictions.
I wonder what the statistics are for lets say a person go's through a stream of bad things in life. Example one person loses a well paying job. Then doesn't find one where they can recoup their income. How long does it take for them to look outside of them self to find comfort? What kind of person just is able to shrug it off and except it. Sells things, or lets them get repossessed. Then another go's off the deep end starts drinking or other self harming behavior. My guess is the breaking point is different for everyone.
Of course theres the alcoholic who just starts out having a good time and has the physical allergy and proceeds to continue his drinking for years then ends up with a mental illness, or illnesses. Then theres a person who seems to partially fit into both.
It's hard to distinguish after a long period of time. It's not like we were keeping journals with graphs in them when we started. The mental health and chemical dependency communities have finally come together and have stopped arguing about what happened first. Unless it's obvious. In our state we now call it behavioral health. In Jan. 2007 legislation passed parady bill mandatating all Ins. Co. must provide the same benefit amount for physical health as behavior health.
I know this is off the title thread Zipper. Your comments seem to get me thinking and I agree with so many things you say. I thought you having a psychology degree I'm guessing a BA you would find what I'm saying a bit interesting. Of course my sensitive alcoholic mind will be just fine if you don't, lol.
As for your friend theres only so much I'm willing to do to help people if they are truly continuing to mooch off me. I tell them the truth! Mixed with kindness and firmness. I tell them the facts. This is how many times I've bent over backwards to give you a hand. Sorry you can't have my whole arm.
Wearing a guilt trip about not doing enough for people who aren't willing to help themselves is no longer one of my short comings. I also have to determine how important the relationship is. Example I'd probably be willing to let one of my kids take my forearm. But thats where I draw the line. It also really depends on what they want the money for, or my time. Encourage your friend to start being responsible for himself. It sounds like you don't want to be his mother.
Take Care Of Ms. Zipper :)
I to needed to hit my head on the cement a few thousand times, or is that a million times.We alcoholics/addicts probably are a group of overly sensitive people who thought and felt that at one time the best way to solve are problems in life was to drink/use. Thankfully, for some of us we've found new daily solutions to living life on life's terms.
I feel what makes us stand out from normal society is the fact we tried to solve our problems and change the way we feel with booze, drugs, food, etc. The normies if there is such a thing didn't go to the extreme lengths of abusing booze, drugs or other self harming addictions.
I wonder what the statistics are for lets say a person go's through a stream of bad things in life. Example one person loses a well paying job. Then doesn't find one where they can recoup their income. How long does it take for them to look outside of them self to find comfort? What kind of person just is able to shrug it off and except it. Sells things, or lets them get repossessed. Then another go's off the deep end starts drinking or other self harming behavior. My guess is the breaking point is different for everyone.
Of course theres the alcoholic who just starts out having a good time and has the physical allergy and proceeds to continue his drinking for years then ends up with a mental illness, or illnesses. Then theres a person who seems to partially fit into both.
It's hard to distinguish after a long period of time. It's not like we were keeping journals with graphs in them when we started. The mental health and chemical dependency communities have finally come together and have stopped arguing about what happened first. Unless it's obvious. In our state we now call it behavioral health. In Jan. 2007 legislation passed parady bill mandatating all Ins. Co. must provide the same benefit amount for physical health as behavior health.
I know this is off the title thread Zipper. Your comments seem to get me thinking and I agree with so many things you say. I thought you having a psychology degree I'm guessing a BA you would find what I'm saying a bit interesting. Of course my sensitive alcoholic mind will be just fine if you don't, lol.
As for your friend theres only so much I'm willing to do to help people if they are truly continuing to mooch off me. I tell them the truth! Mixed with kindness and firmness. I tell them the facts. This is how many times I've bent over backwards to give you a hand. Sorry you can't have my whole arm.
Wearing a guilt trip about not doing enough for people who aren't willing to help themselves is no longer one of my short comings. I also have to determine how important the relationship is. Example I'd probably be willing to let one of my kids take my forearm. But thats where I draw the line. It also really depends on what they want the money for, or my time. Encourage your friend to start being responsible for himself. It sounds like you don't want to be his mother.
Take Care Of Ms. Zipper :)
