DISEASE THEORY DEBATE
Is it a disease because it progresses??
someone who is trying to lose weight...who goes on a diet and tries...loses some...then gains it all back and then some...thats progression of an obsession...food...they ARE getting fatter...but is it a disease?????
Having chemo treatment is compared to going to meetings and treating their DISEASE????
If you were locked up..locked away from all pills and booze and all drugs...you would no longer abuse pills alcohol or other drugs.Yet, if the same were done to a person suffering from cancer, they would continue to have cancer, the disease would progress..locked up or not.
Some Individuals become so brainwashed with their 12 step program or club and their disease propoganda that their meetings, their steps, their postings become their central identity and their explanation of a DISEASE gives them a perfect built in excuse for future relapses.
Is it just POSSIBLE that pill poppers have a choice everyday to take that pill and each day they have an equally powerful choice not to. Even the fact that one might have to go through some temporary physical addiction; maybe even withdrawal,( that may need medical supervision) but is totally reversible
(unlike cancer) within a matter of days or weeks with a simple choice not to partake or continue using their substance.
Cancer, diabetes and other TRUE diseases do not work that way.
12 step programs do not work for everyone..in fact they dont work for most..calling addiction a "disease" is about money.It allows treatment centres to "MEDICALIZE" the conditon, and there for get paid by the millions if not billions by the insurance companies...
Addicts love the disease theory..cus its "not their fault" non addicts love it cus it gives them permission to indulge ( "I dont have the disease...") Rehabs and Treatment centers love it cus they get funded...
Whether on a 12 step program, still using a substance or by sheer will and determination abstinence, people should be allowed to POST AND SHARE THEIR STORIES...
Thank you for allowing me MY opinion, and no i havent USED for 5 years...my mind and heart - my conscience is clear....
Dante
Hello Dante,
You've given your theory very well. A sound argument which I find valid. For myself, I couldn't make that choice until I was able to step away a bit. Had lost those first few pounds if you will. Now that took a few months effort with mistakes made on the way. But I am now in a position where it is a choice for me. I will blame no one but myself if I don't make it. But nor will I give up because I know I have it in me to beat this. Thank you for a thoughtful post.
Beck
You've given your theory very well. A sound argument which I find valid. For myself, I couldn't make that choice until I was able to step away a bit. Had lost those first few pounds if you will. Now that took a few months effort with mistakes made on the way. But I am now in a position where it is a choice for me. I will blame no one but myself if I don't make it. But nor will I give up because I know I have it in me to beat this. Thank you for a thoughtful post.
Beck
Twelve step programs do work for a lot of people.You can over analyze the disease theory and use it as an excuse to relapse but I have been around enough people in the program throughout the years that dont do that.If it doesnt meet your needs,try other ways.I still believe the twelve steps are a great way to live.Its a very personal journey.My views of the program are that its a great way to start healing.Its not even really about drugs.Its about the reasons why I chose to escape life all those years and block out feelings that terrified me.I dont proselytize NA or AA.They sometimes are the only choices when youve lost everything to addiction.You dont have money to hire a shrink at 125.00 an hour to try and figure it out.If you choose to buy into that cultish side that does exist,you defeat the real purpose of healing.I am very grateful there are places where people can go that have lost all hope.You can be given another chance to live.
If it doesnt work for you or its not your thing,I dont judge you for that.I think the only mistake one can ever make is to just give up and quit looking.
Im now at a place where I really dont care if its a disease or not.Semantics can f*** with my head as much as a bottle of Scotch.What I was doing was not working.Thats the only thing I was real clear about.
If it doesnt work for you or its not your thing,I dont judge you for that.I think the only mistake one can ever make is to just give up and quit looking.
Im now at a place where I really dont care if its a disease or not.Semantics can f*** with my head as much as a bottle of Scotch.What I was doing was not working.Thats the only thing I was real clear about.
I agree with Tim. For me, it is just semantics. I, too, know many people who are very altruistic members of 12 step programs with over 20 years clean and sober. So, my experience is that AA/NA does work for many people who are willing to work the steps, help others and go to meetings. It works for me and I have tried many other methods but that is just my experience.
Rachel
Hey Doc, there is a new person here that needs a question answered about relapsing, think you could go and help her? Thanks
I thought of something else that always made a real clear distintion for me.Theorizing about these things never helped me much.Im the type of person thats always had to learn by experiencing it.
I have a good friend Ive known for over 25 years.Hes the type that will buy a bag of blow and go party over the weekends.He drinks pretty heavy and will snort a couple of lines and feel real good,go out and have a good time with his buddies and then put it up.He shows up for work and puts the bag away and cools it till the next weekend.He doent even think about doing anything till then.
This drives me insane.I cannot even fathom having that bag in my drawer.It would be all that I could think about.I would be nervous,distracted,and basicaly would not be able to function knowing it was there.I would be trying to work only to think when I could get home to get it.Isnt that a form of insanity? A crippling grip on your mental factors?
Waiting in line to get your Percocet filled and for some reason there is a delay,maybe they dont have it?Maybe there was an error in the way the prescription was written?I would be immobolized with fear.
Yes, there is some chemical make-up in us that is different.Call it a disease or whatever but that is what happens to me and I seriously doubt the general population goes through these changes.They are physical too.I get red in the face and start sweating.
I have a good friend Ive known for over 25 years.Hes the type that will buy a bag of blow and go party over the weekends.He drinks pretty heavy and will snort a couple of lines and feel real good,go out and have a good time with his buddies and then put it up.He shows up for work and puts the bag away and cools it till the next weekend.He doent even think about doing anything till then.
This drives me insane.I cannot even fathom having that bag in my drawer.It would be all that I could think about.I would be nervous,distracted,and basicaly would not be able to function knowing it was there.I would be trying to work only to think when I could get home to get it.Isnt that a form of insanity? A crippling grip on your mental factors?
Waiting in line to get your Percocet filled and for some reason there is a delay,maybe they dont have it?Maybe there was an error in the way the prescription was written?I would be immobolized with fear.
Yes, there is some chemical make-up in us that is different.Call it a disease or whatever but that is what happens to me and I seriously doubt the general population goes through these changes.They are physical too.I get red in the face and start sweating.
hmmm,dante....i dont think cancer and addiction is a fair comparison....as addiction is a MENTAL ILLNESS,not MEDICAL,none the less it is an illness,causing suffering.......if thinking i was a chia pet,would keep me happy and not using....wat eva works...whick that wouldnt be to healthy lol...but it makes sense ..na/aa to have pll around you that has over come there addiction and move on to better and happer lives........wild
Dear Wildman,
Im sorry..this was an edited version of the original and so it does not show that I was answering OTHERS comparisons to cancer etc... I was merely responding to their questions, but cut out the names and other references that got off topic.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Dante
Im sorry..this was an edited version of the original and so it does not show that I was answering OTHERS comparisons to cancer etc... I was merely responding to their questions, but cut out the names and other references that got off topic.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Dante
I thank you all for your posts,
Tim, I am happy, truly happy for you that you have found whatworks for you and are willing to share that and not beliitle others for doing it differently.You have a great attitude.
The part of 12 steps that in fact is done extremely well is the reflection therapy.
Finding out what isues you have yet to deal with, usually issues from your past,
that makes you want to obliterate and numb your feelings. Therapy and honesty are key to self discovery and puts one on the right path to sobriety.
Again thankyou for all the posts. I have left a post for the prson whom is dealing with "relapse issues" Pam, thankyou for asking me to post.
Dante
Tim, I am happy, truly happy for you that you have found whatworks for you and are willing to share that and not beliitle others for doing it differently.You have a great attitude.
The part of 12 steps that in fact is done extremely well is the reflection therapy.
Finding out what isues you have yet to deal with, usually issues from your past,
that makes you want to obliterate and numb your feelings. Therapy and honesty are key to self discovery and puts one on the right path to sobriety.
Again thankyou for all the posts. I have left a post for the prson whom is dealing with "relapse issues" Pam, thankyou for asking me to post.
Dante
no need to appoligise, and no thanks needed,reason the boards here,to share our thoughts!.hmmm
I would like to see you post some credentials. IMHO, I don't for one minute think that you're what you are proclaiming to be. Your lack of education in this matter is showing.
Seems to me that whatever helps people move beyond the self-judgement and self-loathing that comes with active addiction, and move toward a solution, is a good thing. The disease theory helps a lot of people do that, and it has a fair amount of medical support. Here'sa link from the home page of this site that offers a medical opinion about it being a "brain disease."
http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.o...article151.html
More food for thought.
For me, it seems like everyone has a slightly different opinion of what "disease" means, which then informs whether they accept or reject the disease theory of addiction. The people who seem to argue about it the most, often seem to be looking for a definition that doesn't fit them. I guess the semantics game doesn't interest me much anymore. Finding a solution that helps me stay abstinent from all drugs, and live a fuller and more meaningful life -- that interests me a lot. None
http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.o...article151.html
More food for thought.
For me, it seems like everyone has a slightly different opinion of what "disease" means, which then informs whether they accept or reject the disease theory of addiction. The people who seem to argue about it the most, often seem to be looking for a definition that doesn't fit them. I guess the semantics game doesn't interest me much anymore. Finding a solution that helps me stay abstinent from all drugs, and live a fuller and more meaningful life -- that interests me a lot. None
Hi there dante what a very interesting post thx for taking the time to post it jaxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Very good points all. I must admit, and have many times, that one of the most valuable things I've taken from this board are some of the 12 step principles. They were essential in moving me from a position of abstaining to delving deeper and realizing that I just didn't need to stop eating pills. I too could never just leave that bag in the drawer (figuratively). Al least not in the past 5 years. And in thouroughly reviewing all the things for which I carry great shame and confessing them has made me able to forgive myself womewhat. The most obvious change in me was the first step. My faith made that step easy and the rewards of it were great. SO I owe much to AA/NA. They have saved countless lives and given hope as well. Beck
Dante: Who will benefit if we find the one true answer to the disease question. How about I won't try to convince you it is a disease; And You don't try to convince me it isn't. I just don't get it why anyone cares enough to argue about it. I have been clean for many many years, and have heard this argument more times than I can even remember. I just don't get it.
elsiejean
elsiejean
debating what to call my problem never solved it -- focusing on the solution did.
too often addicts attempt to figure out why they're addicts -- assessing blame on genetics or improper potty training,
does it really matter how we got here? the real question is, "what are you going to do about it?"
i like to use the donkey in the ditch analogy: it doesn't matter how the donkey got into the ditch. how can we get it out and keep it from falling back in again?
i found my solution in working the 12 steps and applying those spiritual principles in my daily life.
*sdr*
too often addicts attempt to figure out why they're addicts -- assessing blame on genetics or improper potty training,
does it really matter how we got here? the real question is, "what are you going to do about it?"
i like to use the donkey in the ditch analogy: it doesn't matter how the donkey got into the ditch. how can we get it out and keep it from falling back in again?
i found my solution in working the 12 steps and applying those spiritual principles in my daily life.
*sdr*
It's quite simple in my opinion and I apologize if I'm wrong. There is a hidden agenda here and I find it to be quite obvious. I ain't buying what your selling. Furthermore, you haven't answered one question that has been directed at you.
Flipperbaby,
You are so right. Funny how he has never come back to defend his views or offer info to support them. I'm not buying the book either.
Sharon
You are so right. Funny how he has never come back to defend his views or offer info to support them. I'm not buying the book either.
Sharon
I think there may be a problem for Dante and Ali being on the Board at the same time? Two places at once, something like that...
Rachel
Exactly Rachel.
