I just wanted to check in. I know (from reading these) that a lot of you are way into the 12 steps. Does anyone have any qualms about the dogmatic approach besides me? I don't like the one-size-fits-all ideas, 'cause it doesn't!! Don't add to this post unless you want to discuss differences you have with AA. Thanks. Would love to hear from some free thinkers!
Edited : To Delete
Troll
Troll
you're probably not disillusioned with the 12 steps...
I'm guessing you're probably disillusioned with HAVING to do the 12 steps and the personality's that say they've benifited from them,it's frustrating unless you get INTO ACTION and be honest with yourself about how you've looked at other people and the world before you decided to get sober...
shop around for different meeting if you're not comfortable at the meeting you're going to (if you're going to meetings) and keep an open mind
I'm guessing you're probably disillusioned with HAVING to do the 12 steps and the personality's that say they've benifited from them,it's frustrating unless you get INTO ACTION and be honest with yourself about how you've looked at other people and the world before you decided to get sober...
shop around for different meeting if you're not comfortable at the meeting you're going to (if you're going to meetings) and keep an open mind
Am I edited b/c I am disillusioned w AA?
Can't I just stay sober?? I like sobriety but not the dogmatic steps.
You have the right to your opinion just as anyone else here on the board does.
Have a good night.
Have a good night.
Dogma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. While in the context of religion the term is largely descriptive, outside of religion its current usage tends to carry a pejorative connotationreferring to concepts as being "established" only according to a particular point of view, and thus one of doubtful foundation. This pejorative connotation is even stronger with the term dogmatic, used to describe a person of rigid beliefs who is not open to rational argument.
There are many different view points in AA. It's a program of suggestions, not absolutes. There is no wrong way of achieving and maintaining sobriety. I'm happy that you found your way. Right On. Welcome to Arg. Not everyone here attends AA. But, we do our best to help each other. :) AA isn't a religion or organization. It's a bunch of alcoholic' s and addict's helping each other to stay sober one day at a time. Sharing their experience, strength and hope with each other. Besides that many of us wouldn't socially mix with each other. Have you ever been to AA? If so, why do you have a problem with other people who've found away to achieve and maintain sobriety? I will support you any which way you have found sobriety and some peace and happiness in life. It doesn't have to be my way. Is it to much to ask the same from you?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dogma (the plural is either dogmata or dogmas, Greek is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization, thought to be authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from. While in the context of religion the term is largely descriptive, outside of religion its current usage tends to carry a pejorative connotationreferring to concepts as being "established" only according to a particular point of view, and thus one of doubtful foundation. This pejorative connotation is even stronger with the term dogmatic, used to describe a person of rigid beliefs who is not open to rational argument.
There are many different view points in AA. It's a program of suggestions, not absolutes. There is no wrong way of achieving and maintaining sobriety. I'm happy that you found your way. Right On. Welcome to Arg. Not everyone here attends AA. But, we do our best to help each other. :) AA isn't a religion or organization. It's a bunch of alcoholic' s and addict's helping each other to stay sober one day at a time. Sharing their experience, strength and hope with each other. Besides that many of us wouldn't socially mix with each other. Have you ever been to AA? If so, why do you have a problem with other people who've found away to achieve and maintain sobriety? I will support you any which way you have found sobriety and some peace and happiness in life. It doesn't have to be my way. Is it to much to ask the same from you?
To Lookinup: Yes, of course I have tried AA. I go to MA as well. I have had old timers in AA tell me to go home and read the BigBook. I have had many many people answer me and my concerns with a slogan. I feel like no one really listens to me. Yes I know it is suggested that you do the steps, but I never hear any free thinkers in there. Being a feminist and not a Christian, I can't even relate to God as a man. What do I do when everyone holds hands and prays the Christian prayer to Our Father? It is hard to go against the grain all the time, and I never hear anyone speak up like I do. I feel very alone. I know I am supposed to take what I like and leave the rest. I hate introducing myself as an addict/alcoholic, b/c I am so much more. A miracle, for instance.
Well, I've had my say.
Any other free thinkers out there!!???
Well, I've had my say.
Any other free thinkers out there!!???
Guest/Vicki,
When you ask if there are any "free-thinkers" what do you mean? I am taking it as you don't think people that adhere to AA are free thinkers??? I may be taking it the wrong way but that is how it reads to me. Just curious. If you care to...explain.
Btw...I am not in the program.
When you ask if there are any "free-thinkers" what do you mean? I am taking it as you don't think people that adhere to AA are free thinkers??? I may be taking it the wrong way but that is how it reads to me. Just curious. If you care to...explain.
Btw...I am not in the program.
Vital Vicki,
Are you able to stay sober on your own? What is MA? I've never heard of that. Have you heard of sober recovery. It's based more on rational recovery. Well sorta. I've been to those meetings to and I like them. They are more about free thinking and mind fullness. There is sobriety for woman and sos meetings. Look AA is not for everyone. Thats OK.
Let me tell you though I've heard time and time again what your saying about the higher power and the Lord's prayer. Then people find a higher power of their own understanding. It doesn't happen all at once. I totally see why you feel uncomfortable. Can you listen and talk to people who also felt like you did at one time. You are right about that the corner stone of the program is based off of a HP that will help you stay sane and sober. Plus more.
I've heard of people throwing out their old HP. Finding a new one. Taking out the cookie cutter and making it their own. But, again I understand why you feel uncomfortable. I had the opposite problem as I believe in God. I still feel uncomfortable at times, as I'm a loner. I don't agree with everything thats said. Tonights meeting was that and boring. But many of them are great. If you still want to give AA a shot try some different meetings. As far as I'm concerned people should try to be more diverse in their thinking. One size doesn't fit all. I'm a firm believer in this. Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel out of place check out other types of groups. I wish you the best. I hope you find what your looking for.
Are you able to stay sober on your own? What is MA? I've never heard of that. Have you heard of sober recovery. It's based more on rational recovery. Well sorta. I've been to those meetings to and I like them. They are more about free thinking and mind fullness. There is sobriety for woman and sos meetings. Look AA is not for everyone. Thats OK.
Let me tell you though I've heard time and time again what your saying about the higher power and the Lord's prayer. Then people find a higher power of their own understanding. It doesn't happen all at once. I totally see why you feel uncomfortable. Can you listen and talk to people who also felt like you did at one time. You are right about that the corner stone of the program is based off of a HP that will help you stay sane and sober. Plus more.
I've heard of people throwing out their old HP. Finding a new one. Taking out the cookie cutter and making it their own. But, again I understand why you feel uncomfortable. I had the opposite problem as I believe in God. I still feel uncomfortable at times, as I'm a loner. I don't agree with everything thats said. Tonights meeting was that and boring. But many of them are great. If you still want to give AA a shot try some different meetings. As far as I'm concerned people should try to be more diverse in their thinking. One size doesn't fit all. I'm a firm believer in this. Anyway, I'm sorry that you feel out of place check out other types of groups. I wish you the best. I hope you find what your looking for.
Hi Vicki,
I think I might have some idea where you're coming from. It's good to have an open mind and explore all sorts of things. Part of that is recognising that lots of people find AA really helpful....life saving, life changing....and because they're good people they're bound to want to pass that good stuff on, much as you probably want to share your insights about feminism, patriarchy and so on with others....it's a natural human tendency yo want to share what we know. Some people can be a bit pushy about it, whether it be Feminism, Republicanism, Confucianism or AA. We're all human.
On top of that, lots of people come to AA having tried everything else - and after struggling for years to get their sanity back. They might not all take kindly to any criticism, and might even feel that potentially you could be deterring others from gaining the benefits of sobriety they have and (in their eyes) you don't really want yet ('cos if you did you'd be investing your time and energy and intelligence concentrating on what works for you, not on what you don't like about what works for millions of other people).
I guess the upshot of it is, get sober whatever way works for you. Some AAers would say you're not ready and to come back when you are. Others would say just keep coming back. Ignore what you don't like and think about what makes sense to you.
If you're interested, I suggest reading Jung and some Eastern philosophies on the ego and its role in individuation and addiction. My experience is that over-reliance on my conscious mind, my ego, prevented powerful resources in my Unconscious from taking their rightful place at the centre of my being....I thought my conscious mind was "me" - it isn't....it's a small part of me and learning to listen to the still, inner voice that some call God, some call their Higher Power and some and Jung and psychoanalysts and psychiatrists and Gurus might call their real, authentic Self (as opposed to the noisy, conscious bit)...is what is helping make small steps towards maturity, integrity and authenticity. It feels good.
But over-intellectualising that is part of the problem. I can flee to ego and intellect easily.....just as easily as I fled to focusing on other people, work, and to alcohol. Anything to distract me from the root causes of my problems and my addictions....
And when you've read a bit you might begin to see the connections between human psychology and the 12 steps. Good people found a way to help alcoholics and, with hindsight (although Jung treated more than one of the group of people in at the start of AA) it is clear that they embody some great therapeutic principles. Some would say that this is God working in mysterious ways. Others - and not necessarily believers - would just gasp "thank God! something that might save my life".
When you know you're drowning you don't ask the credentials of the man throwing you a lifebelt or argue it would work better if it was a bit different.
Are you drowning Vicki?
Martin.
I think I might have some idea where you're coming from. It's good to have an open mind and explore all sorts of things. Part of that is recognising that lots of people find AA really helpful....life saving, life changing....and because they're good people they're bound to want to pass that good stuff on, much as you probably want to share your insights about feminism, patriarchy and so on with others....it's a natural human tendency yo want to share what we know. Some people can be a bit pushy about it, whether it be Feminism, Republicanism, Confucianism or AA. We're all human.
On top of that, lots of people come to AA having tried everything else - and after struggling for years to get their sanity back. They might not all take kindly to any criticism, and might even feel that potentially you could be deterring others from gaining the benefits of sobriety they have and (in their eyes) you don't really want yet ('cos if you did you'd be investing your time and energy and intelligence concentrating on what works for you, not on what you don't like about what works for millions of other people).
I guess the upshot of it is, get sober whatever way works for you. Some AAers would say you're not ready and to come back when you are. Others would say just keep coming back. Ignore what you don't like and think about what makes sense to you.
If you're interested, I suggest reading Jung and some Eastern philosophies on the ego and its role in individuation and addiction. My experience is that over-reliance on my conscious mind, my ego, prevented powerful resources in my Unconscious from taking their rightful place at the centre of my being....I thought my conscious mind was "me" - it isn't....it's a small part of me and learning to listen to the still, inner voice that some call God, some call their Higher Power and some and Jung and psychoanalysts and psychiatrists and Gurus might call their real, authentic Self (as opposed to the noisy, conscious bit)...is what is helping make small steps towards maturity, integrity and authenticity. It feels good.
But over-intellectualising that is part of the problem. I can flee to ego and intellect easily.....just as easily as I fled to focusing on other people, work, and to alcohol. Anything to distract me from the root causes of my problems and my addictions....
And when you've read a bit you might begin to see the connections between human psychology and the 12 steps. Good people found a way to help alcoholics and, with hindsight (although Jung treated more than one of the group of people in at the start of AA) it is clear that they embody some great therapeutic principles. Some would say that this is God working in mysterious ways. Others - and not necessarily believers - would just gasp "thank God! something that might save my life".
When you know you're drowning you don't ask the credentials of the man throwing you a lifebelt or argue it would work better if it was a bit different.
Are you drowning Vicki?
Martin.
What do I do when everyone holds hands and prays the Christian prayer to Our Father?
That's easy. Leave before the prayer or silently say your own prayer. I believe we hold hands and pray to show unity not religion. I know a few people that just lower their heads and say their own prayer. No big deal.
The problem I have with the steps is that they ruined drinking for me. My personality has changed so much since I worked them that I don't want to drink any more. Since I relearned integrity and honesty I don't have those nasty feelings of guilt and shame that always led me to drink. But I DO enjoy sobriety so maybe they aren't so bad after all.
That's easy. Leave before the prayer or silently say your own prayer. I believe we hold hands and pray to show unity not religion. I know a few people that just lower their heads and say their own prayer. No big deal.
The problem I have with the steps is that they ruined drinking for me. My personality has changed so much since I worked them that I don't want to drink any more. Since I relearned integrity and honesty I don't have those nasty feelings of guilt and shame that always led me to drink. But I DO enjoy sobriety so maybe they aren't so bad after all.
| QUOTE |
| Can't I just stay sober?? I like sobriety but not the dogmatic steps. |
Alcoholism is "A physiological allergy manifested by a mental obsession and craving." It's not a moral dilemma. It's not a matter of willpower. It's a disease that affects both the body AND the brain at the same time. Only you can determine if you are alcoholic, but if you want to quit and can't seem to, or have trouble stopping when you start, we can help.
You deserve to be happy, joyous and free. Whatever it takes.
Vicki,
I want to apologize for the troll comment in my first post. I obviously jumped the gun with that. Many times new people come here...throw out something insulting and then wait to see the wreckage. I assumed that was what you were doing.
I would still be interested in hearing some of your story. How have you stayed sober?
I would also like to understand your definition of "free thinkers". What does that mean to you?
Have a good day.
I want to apologize for the troll comment in my first post. I obviously jumped the gun with that. Many times new people come here...throw out something insulting and then wait to see the wreckage. I assumed that was what you were doing.
I would still be interested in hearing some of your story. How have you stayed sober?
I would also like to understand your definition of "free thinkers". What does that mean to you?
Have a good day.
Now that's a little more like it.
No, I am definitely not drowning!
MA is Marijuana Anonymous, my drug of choice. I just thought I'd get better response posting this in the Alcohol column rather than the MJ side.
I know nothing about ARG. Is it based in Britain? US?
I am happy that AA helps millions of other people. I just wondered if anyone out there besides me feels a little restricted by the 12 steps.
I need to try other groups, and maybe get a taste of differences. I would like a woman's group, but the local MA is a small fellowship and 2/3 men, er, boys. Lots of guys court-ordered to go, just out of jail.
Thanks for listening (reading) and responding.
No, I am definitely not drowning!
MA is Marijuana Anonymous, my drug of choice. I just thought I'd get better response posting this in the Alcohol column rather than the MJ side.
I know nothing about ARG. Is it based in Britain? US?
I am happy that AA helps millions of other people. I just wondered if anyone out there besides me feels a little restricted by the 12 steps.
I need to try other groups, and maybe get a taste of differences. I would like a woman's group, but the local MA is a small fellowship and 2/3 men, er, boys. Lots of guys court-ordered to go, just out of jail.
Thanks for listening (reading) and responding.
Thanks, Valarie. I was not saying what I did for the effect (to see the wreckage); I wanted to see what other folks had to say.
That comment from "Guest" is me, too. Don't know why my name wasn't on it.
BTW, I am a 60 year old G'ma, and not as hip on the computer as a lot of other (younger?) folks seem to be. That's OK; I grew up roaming the woods, playing the old-fashioned way, and having lots of fun. Some call it old school. (LOL)
I'm from Central Valley California, formerly of Berkeley.
I think I need to go to some different meetings and meet other women. I enjoy being in a room full of laughter and wisdom, I just cringe when I hear the slogans and platitudes. That's why I asked for free thinkers. When I hear folks quoting the BigBook etc, I wonder if they can't express themselves any other way?? It's like all the kids who say f*** all the time; is that how small their vocabulary is?
Thanks for all the responses and the caring.
The only slogan I really like is One day at a time. 'Cause that's all we have, anyway, is the right now.
So it's off to work for me - I am a nurse in an elder care day facility. I love my job and I love people. Thanks again for your support.
That comment from "Guest" is me, too. Don't know why my name wasn't on it.
BTW, I am a 60 year old G'ma, and not as hip on the computer as a lot of other (younger?) folks seem to be. That's OK; I grew up roaming the woods, playing the old-fashioned way, and having lots of fun. Some call it old school. (LOL)
I'm from Central Valley California, formerly of Berkeley.
I think I need to go to some different meetings and meet other women. I enjoy being in a room full of laughter and wisdom, I just cringe when I hear the slogans and platitudes. That's why I asked for free thinkers. When I hear folks quoting the BigBook etc, I wonder if they can't express themselves any other way?? It's like all the kids who say f*** all the time; is that how small their vocabulary is?
Thanks for all the responses and the caring.
The only slogan I really like is One day at a time. 'Cause that's all we have, anyway, is the right now.
So it's off to work for me - I am a nurse in an elder care day facility. I love my job and I love people. Thanks again for your support.
Vicki, I guess everyone has their jargon. I guess you have some at your place of work. It's often an efficient a way of communicating a lot more than the surface message.....and over the years a lot of people have found the big book a pretty sure guide to a life-saving and life-changing experience. It's a jargon of sorts...
You say you're free-thinking, which is fair enough, but does that include the possibility of being wrong? Of listening to learn, rather than to correct? Of understanding that none of us know what we don't know....that we don't know what we don't know....and maybe others do? Of being open to possibilities, however far-fetched, that some - only some - of your own certainties might be as warm and as beautiful and as real as the Emperor's New Clothers?
Of course, as everyone else here will know, I'm projecting just a little here...lol
Best,
Martin
You say you're free-thinking, which is fair enough, but does that include the possibility of being wrong? Of listening to learn, rather than to correct? Of understanding that none of us know what we don't know....that we don't know what we don't know....and maybe others do? Of being open to possibilities, however far-fetched, that some - only some - of your own certainties might be as warm and as beautiful and as real as the Emperor's New Clothers?
Of course, as everyone else here will know, I'm projecting just a little here...lol
Best,
Martin
Vicki,
Thanks for giving a bit of your story. I think taking care of the elderly is quite noble. In the US it seems that the elderly are sometimes forgotten.
Welcome to the ARG board and have a great day!
Thanks for giving a bit of your story. I think taking care of the elderly is quite noble. In the US it seems that the elderly are sometimes forgotten.
Welcome to the ARG board and have a great day!
Welcome Vickie! I can relate with pretty much everything you say. I don't do many meetings but I do take with me the principles of the 12 steps and although some of the platitudes make me cringe, I still like a few. "One day at a time" is my favorite, too. Anyway, I just wanted to welcome you and tell you that you are not alone in your thoughts.
Have a great day.
Have a great day.
I used to think "Open Mindedness," was followed by, "To MY ideals and thoughts." Acceptance and Humility (a clear recognition of what and who we are followed by a sincere attempt to be all that we can..) has taught me that I am free to be secure enough in who/what I am to allow you to have your own opinions. Tolerance has taught me that you may actually have something of value I may learn from. Patience is teaching me that, while I may be right, you may be right, too.
Left Coast? Marijuana? Berkeley? Say it isn't SO!
LOL
Left Coast? Marijuana? Berkeley? Say it isn't SO!
LOL
