Help-need Advice Re Tramadol-subutex

Hi everyone, am new here. I need to know how long i would have to be without tramadol and how bad the withdrawals have to get before subutex will help. I am in trouble, am on massive dose, about 1500 mls a day, have run out, no internet delivery has arrived, and I am now twenty four hours without. At this stage i have the s***s, sneezes, sweats, but can still function, slowly though, as the joint pains are starting too. I have some subutex here, but am worried about using it too soon and making things even worse. Post just been, no tramadol parcel, that means nothing until tomorrow at the earliest, and i have to carry on a normal life here. I live in the middle of rural ireland, and can't let anyone know what is wrong,. Have been on tramadol for over ten years, can anyone tell me when it would be helpful to take the subutex. I had some codeine about 15 hours ago, and the last tramadol about 20, so am really only just starting to go in wds, help please, someone out there must have been in similar position,

Thanks,

Sasha

Are you wanting to use the Sub just until your Tramadol arrives??
Or are you ready to get clean and want to use the Sub short-term to
ease the w/d's??

Sub has a very long half life and is also an opiate blocker.
So if you were to take Sub today, you can not take any Tramadol again until the Sub is out of your system (a few days) or else you will make yourself even more sick.

Do you currently have a Dr that is supplying the Sub?? Or is it left
over from a previous time you used Sub?? Or did it come from
"other sources"??

Let us know what your goal is here so we can advise better .....
cause what it sounds like you are thinking is quite dangerous.



sasha
you can start the subutex when you have not had any codiene or tramadol in your system for at least 24 hrs. if taken too soon the subutex will throw off the other 2 drugs off you brain receptors too fast and you will go into withdrawals,
does subutex come in the same mg doses as suboxone? 2mb and 8 mg tablets? if so, you can start your induction period when you are cleared 24 hours without those 2 drugs,
start by taking a 2 mg tablet of subutex. morning, lunch dinner and bedtime, it will take your body some time to get used to, i had extreme sleepiness, vomiting and seeing double vision at first, then it went away, it is so worth it to start this tool of therapy as it will take away any withdrawals so you can quit abusing the other drugs.
next you will need to find a subutex doctor right away so that you will have refills available.otherwise you will relapse.
very very important, subutex is not a magic cure all, it is a tool, now comes the work and it has to work this way to stay clean.
start attending NA meetings
get a sponsor
work the 12 steps of recovery living,face to face support with therapist often, a network of phone numbers of other recovering addicts to talk to, keep posting to this forum,this is where you will find the void that made you numb yourself with mood altering substances.
good luck, if anyone else here on the forum would like to back me up for what i have suggested, please do so, i am not a doctor and i took suboxone which is subutex with the addition of naloxone.
naloxone is a drug they add to subutex that prevents an addict from getting high if they were to use. jewels

what swizzle said is SO TRUE, if you are not serious about this than dont waste anyones time, if you are serious we are here for you 100%.
Hi swizzle, thanks for coming back so fast. I am thinking hard about getting off of the whole thing, but realise that the dose of tram i am currently on is serious. The sub is from someone over from england who left it with me to try and help stop the withdrawals which i am about to go into. What i would like to do is come down to a manageable amount of tram to begin tapering off. I tried last week, i was about twenty hours into withdrawal, and i had half a pill, think it was half and eight ml, will check in a bit, it did absolutely nothing, and the cramps in my upper legs got to the point where i had to take some tram to stop them. I didn't have any ill effects, but the cramps and wd's stopped. Since then i have been cutting down, have been on about 1000mls a day. My doc wouldn't even know what sub was. She is trying to cut me down from what she thinks is a daily dose of 200mls a day,

Any advice now, am working online so will keep checklng this site,

Sasha
Hello jewelsander am only just getting used to this site, and i love it. Love the furry family, i have four rescue dogs and four rescue cats. Yours are beautiful, am feeling little weak at present, just wanted to say hi and thanks,

Sasha
hi sasha
thanks for the compliments on my furry family. i love them so much!i would try and get really serious about getting off the trams, its only gonna get worse as far as tolerance and such, i am SO much happier now that i have the vicodin monkey off my back and i wish that for you too,
your doctor may not know what sub is but google doctors to find one in your area, you would not believe the life changing experience i have had since finding this forum, them telling me about sub and then doing my homework. i was so depressed in the darkness of addiction and withdrawals. think about it. drugs abuse leads to three things as stated in the basic text of NA: jails, institutions and death, i have already done the institutions.. jewels
Hey not to sound RUDE but get your butt to a Dr & do it right.That Drug almost killed me!!!
You do need to forget about using the Sub., unless under a doctor's care.
Sub, is a very powerful drug, and no way should you be considering putting yourself on it.

To come here and ask us to help you is wrong, and no one here should be giving you medical advice. We are not doctors, and what you have on your hands is a serious medical condition, and I wouldn't think you would put your life in the hands of us amateurs.

Please, call a doctor, get some professional help.

Good luck. It may be that you are a prime candidate for the Sub., but you shouldn't risk finding out the hard way that you aren't. If your dr. isn't up on it, find one who is. Take care. :-)
Thanks for concern people, i dont think any of you know rural ireland, my doc is fairly young, and she is seventy. Addiction is regarded as being in league with the devil, unless its alcohol, in which case it is ok. I have friends working in major rehab here, and unless i move to the capital and go on a six months waiting list for a methadone place, they can't suggest anything either. The last thing i want is a methadone hab to go with my other probs. The advice other users have given to me so far has been careful and considered, and i don't think anyone has told me anything rash or dangerous. I have had an opiate prob for twenty years, so am not going to od or anything on sub. I just need to get a handle on these wd's. I still have had nothing since some mild codeine tabs at nine pm last night, and am keeping things together.

Sash



Sash, I have a friend who has been on Sub for 3 years. He recently went off of it to "have some fun". He stayed high for a few days, and then thought he would just go back on the Sub.
Well, he didn't think he would OD, either. He has been an opiate user for many, many years, and thought he knew too much to hurt himself. But, he ODed. He wound up in the hospital, after going into seizures and nearly dying.
No one plans on ODing, unless they are suicidal.
I understand your unfortunate predictament in rural Ireland, and will admit getting the help you need isn't going to be easy.
But please, just be advised, that we are not doctors here, and if you do something which may be life threatening, you should do so because of your own information and decisions, not based on what anyone here told you.

Perhaps there a Help Line you could call. Google it, and see if you can come up with a more reliable source of information. Or try the Sub. board........naabt.org........there are tons of experienced folks and articles there.
Agree entirely Carol, and I am the type of person who will compare the answers i get with what i know and do what i am going to do anyway. I think you guys are so sweet to be concerned about someone you have never met, and when i joined the site, i thought there were doctors monitoring the communications, didn't want to put unqualified people on the spot. There are good people around me here too, and they are keeping an eye on me. At least i can talk to my grown children, i confessed all to them a long time ago, and have their full support. So i am lucky in that respect. My daughter lives here in ireland with me, and knows me well enough to realise quickly if i am not myself. We are talking thirty somethings here, not kids, and they were brought up in london, so are au fait with what i am doing or trying to do. Have spent the afternoon dealing with builders and working, so, still hanging in there, thanks in part to the people who have taken time to contact me. I am going to be checking in and out of the site during the rest of the night, it is 5pm here and i still have dogs to walk and dinners to cook,

Love to all,

Sash



Sash, This site is great, no doubt about it.
But I strongly urge you to check out NAABT.com
It is a world of info about Sub., and there are links there to drs. you can talk to, as well as many others who know a vast more about Sub. than any of us do.
Have your daugher read up on it if she is going to be the one overseeing you. You will not find a better site on the web with more info about Sub. and all you ever wanted to know about using it.
Thank you so much Carol. Have had half of a 4ml sub an hour ago, and am out of withdrawal, feeling fine, functioning again, and have clued up people with me just in case, but am sure nothing bad is going to happen to me now. Am going to take the dogs for their evening walk, and do the stuff around the house that i wasn't up to earlier. I have to decide now what i am going to do, the tramadol will arrive sometime in the next day or so, and the main thing is to drop down to a much much lower dose, and then try to sort out some way to detox with sub, and sort out a way of getting enough of it to do it. I am sick of this situation, don't want to be out of it, or getting stoned, just want to be able to deal with everyday life. I realise I have so much to be thankful for, my beautiful family, friends, my animals, just all the blessings that so many people don't have. The days when i had to have something to make life bearable are long gone, its just the fear of months of withdrawals and depression, i have looked at a lot of stuff written by people trying to come off of tram and having such an awful time, i have so much going on in my life that i don't have time to fall apart. At least this sub stuff seems to offer some chance of getting through. I really am grateful for the help i have had on the site, and will be back on later,

Sash



Sash, Well, thank God it went OK. I am very happy to hear that. I hope you will continue to update us and let us know. I hate to sound so negative, but some people have had a reaction to it after a few hours..........just please keep posting and let us know how you are for the next couple of days.
How much Sub. do you have? When you tell me what sort of supply you have, maybe I can help you work out a taper schedule with it, and you won't even have to go back to the tramadol. I would be happy to do that, if you're willing to get rid of the tramadol when they arrive! How does that sound?
Guess it's the middle of the night over there now, but I look forward to hearing from you in the morning. God was with you today, and for that I am grateful! :-)
Carol its Sash, it is 11.40pm and i am off to bed, and i am pretty sure I am going to be able to sleep. It's a funny thing this sub, i sort of am aware every now and then off the aches and pains underneath the feeling of normality, but its like a subconscious thing. I have only two and a half of the 8mg subs, they came from england and the person is trying to work out how to get 20 more of them to me. That is another part of the problem. There is no way i can get them here, have made enquiries with everyone i know at the big rehab centre in the capital, and it seems all i can do is buy illegally, trusting someone to have the money sent to them and send back the subs, travel myself and buy illegally, or another friend has said that in France they are legally prescribed, but i would have to go there and go to a doctor and explain my situation. Apparently all doctors there are private and it would be possible to go to a recommended one and explain my situation, pay for the consultation and the prescription. All these things are so convoluted and difficult that i am at my wits end trying to find a solid strategy. I am going to head for bed and have a decent sleep, after the day i have had so far, although i am feeling so much better than i would have believed possible earlier, i am still far from firing on all cylinders as it were, and am hoping a nights rest might clarify things. I would be lying if i said i would be able to throw away the tramadol if it arrived tomorrow, as the thought of going through days of much worse than i went through today is too horrifying, and from what i have read of other users on much smaller doses, i only dipped my toe in the water over the last twenty six hours.

I really think it is so lovely of you to take such an interest in a total stranger. I am very glad i found this web site and asked for advice. I will update you tomorrow as from what i have read and been told, i should be ok for about 72hrs. Goodnight my new friend(s)

Sash
Sash,

Congratulations on your decision to stop taking the pills. You are on your way to saving your life.

Being addicted to those little monsters is a nightmare. Quitting isnt easy. I quit so many times I have lost track. I quit and started up again without batting an eye. It wasnt until I asked for help did I fully understand what addiction is and how it effects your brain and your body.

I took Suboxone and it saved my life. I have been pill free for almost a year now. I recommend it to anyone. I will only recommend it if it is taken under the care of a doctor, preferable an Addiction Specialist.

Click on this Click on this site and read about suboxone. This site is for US residents but how the medication works is the same everywhere.

http://www.buprenorphine.samhsa.gov/about.html

Your taking Suboxone (Subutex) without being under the care of a doctor really concerns me. Suboxone (Subutex) is a very powerful drug. Suboxone (Subutex) is a highly addictive drug. Suboxone (Subutex) should be administered while being watched and monitored by a physician. There must be several follow up visits to insure the correct dosage. SUBOXONE ISNT A CURE FOR ADDICTION. People buy Suboxone (Subutex) off the street and try to detox themselves and get themselves in a lot of trouble. Getting information on how to take it on a web site in cyber space is about as stupid as you can get. Unfortunately many people are quick to tell people how much to take, where and when. I cringe when I see advice given. I am so worried that someone may die by following Cyber Doctors instructions regarding Suboxone.

I took Suboxone. It is a wonderful drug. Because I took it I know how dangerous it can be.

If you cant just stop Cold Turkey please start making phone calls. Call your local hospital and ask about their drug programs. Ask for recommendations for Addiction Specialists. Ask if they have any support groups. Call your church and ask if they have any support groups. Start getting pissed at the pills and get the help you deserve.

A good nights sleep will help you think about the work ahead of you. A good nights sleep will help with the WD's. Quitting isn't easy.

Im rooting for you!

Catherine
Hi Catherine, thanks for your concern. I don't have the luxury of being able to call a doctor/specialist. My own doc and her husband run the local hosp and the addiction specialist is an untrained voluntee who was a serious alcoholic, and wouldn't know an opiate from a cabbage. The priest would report me to the police, and if you know anything about living in Ireland, esp on the border, you don't "change sides" when it comes to priests, not that the local protestant one, who is in his eighties would know anymore about this prob than my own one. He would either give me a blessing or condemn me to Hell!!

I have faith in my own judgement, and will do what i have to do, am talking to people on this site who know more in their sleep than any so called addiction councillor here would ever know. I will not od, have spent thirty years as an alcoholic, heroin addict, tramadol addict.

The reasons I felt driven to take these drugs no longer exist, and i wish to live, and live as myself, not some human zombie. No one has either guessed that i had any of these probs, and i kicked the alcohol unassisted, cold turkey. I hold down a very responsible job, and just asking for help with this tramadol thing could literally result in my having to leave the country.

I am extremely grateful for all the advice i have been given, i give it all serious consideration, then do what i have to do. Am feeling ok, but have had no sleep, and can feel the wd's creeping back, have nasty leg cramp. By the way, the addiction pattern started after i survived cancer back in the early eighties, when i needed to be on serious pain control, but was found to be allegic to all substances containing aspirin.

Will take the other half of the eight ml sub, and get back to this noticeboard after that and a cup of tea. Good morning to all my new friends,

Sash
Sasha:

Hi! Welcome! I don't have any experience with subutex, or suboxone, but just wanted to say hello, and good on you for wanting to get clean. I know the weight of addiction just got too heavy for me to carry anymore too.

I read your post about how difficult receiving any help in Ireland is. That is really something isn't it? I always find it so strange, even in our own country, how there are so many outlets to get illicit drugs, but very few outlets for getting clean from them...and even when given all the choices we have for rehabilitation units...some of them aren't really fit.

Sasha...I didn't read what your dose level was at the time you began to take the subutex, but just wanted to say...you don't have to have the subutex to get clean. I know withdrawals are tough, I went cold turkey at home. It ain't fun, nor pretty, but it can be done.

Sometimes, we have no choice, as in your case...so, I hope you are prepared for that as opposed to getting more pain meds (if you cannot get the subutex). Catherine, (Me Again) who posted to you earlier, did a very quick taper off the sub, and quite successfully, I might add. I think she was off of it in 22 days, and honestly, off all the folks I have talked to who have taken that drug, hers was the easiest detox from the sub. It can be a real challenge to come off if you are on it for any length of time...as I understand from those who have tried.

Anyway, as I said, I have no real experience, just bits and pieces....it seems like good medicine to help the suffering addict if used correctly.

I hope it all works out for you! Again, welcome!

Sarah



Sash, Good morning in Ireland, Now that we have all of the facts, it really just makes your predicament even more frustrating.

I find your situation, and I am sure many other's, so interesting. How your country is living so behind the times in 2007. That is too bad. I can not even fathom living under such conditions,,,yes, I am a spoiled American. But not an ungrateful one, by any means. I realize we are very fortunate to have what must be the most extensive health care system in the world, and any problem, large or small, can be treated with not much more than a phone call and a ten minute drive down the road. I wish life for you was that simple, and everyone in this world.
I don't know what your plans are for when you run out of the Sub. you currently have. I know you have a difficult decision to make, and I will pray that God guides you to make the right one. Being an addict, I know it not likely you can go back to the Tramadol and keep your dosage low, but I wish you the strength to do that.

It would be best for you, your life, and your family's, if you would just not go back on them at all. The small amount of Sub you have presently isn't enough to last longer that a few days. Unless you get more, I realize you will most likely just go right back to the Tramadol, but I truly wish you could tough it out and not do that.

Call in sick for a few days. Do what ever you have to do to stay home for a week or so, and try to get it behind you. I promise, you would be able to return to work next week, and have this monkey off your back.
I support you in whatever you chose to do, and hope you will keep coming back here and reading and posting. Sooner or later, you may get the strength to kick cold turkey. I hope so.

Have a nice day, my new Irish friend. God bless you.
Carol
Sash,

Thank you for explaining your tiny town. Living in the Dark Ages does makes it difficult to do anything. lol Here in the US we have towns that still burn witches, people still fight the Civil War and men on the moon was a government hoax. We were supposed to keep the Church seperate from Government but I do understand how priests think of themselves as the keeper of all town gossip and turning people in for moral crimes is their duty.

WD's are hell, I know first hand. I understand your desire to make it through this as painless as possible. Suboxone is wonderful, it saved my life. Please take it with caution, you don't want to go from the frying pan into the fire. Please take your other drug with caution to. The whole idea of this is to stop drugs completely and you don't want to get dependent on something else.

Drink a lot of water, it pees the pills out and hydrates you. Eat fresh fruit and vegetables. Banannas help the leg twitches and cramps.

Tim, explain to Sash how important diet and excersise is.

Everybody, give Sasa detox information (like hot baths)

You willl be over this in no time, keep posting.

Catherine