I love the ATTEMPT that recovering alcoholics make to be honest with ourselves. The attempt is what counts because it's all we can control - so much about ourselves is hidden from ourselves - but by God, is the ATTEMPT important!
Willingness into action, progress, not perfection, step by step towards the light.
Have a great day,
Martin
| QUOTE |
| love the ATTEMPT that recovering alcoholics make to be honest with ourselves. |
| QUOTE |
| The attempt is what counts because it's all we can control - so much about ourselves is hidden from ourselves - but by God, is the ATTEMPT important! |
True honesty (as an essential principle of spirituality) is a tool which will immediately STOP a situation from getting any worse. There is a leveling of humility required, and rigorous honesty is the only means by which I, as an alcoholic, can be successful in recovery.
lol....
Skq, you've missed the first bit off that first "quote", which says "I love...etc"...so I'm not speaking for anyone but myself...and if I love the attempt recovering alcoholics make etc....and it's a FACT that I love it....you're not in a position to disagree with that buddy :)
As for the second quote, unless you're saying you DON'T think the attempt is important I'm not sure what that's about - unless you're taking my inventory about something else, in which case a little more openness and honesty would also be appreciated. And er, aren't you offering ME what you've got in that post? lol
I'm confused, but that's ok, it's human.
Best wishes,
Martin
Skq, you've missed the first bit off that first "quote", which says "I love...etc"...so I'm not speaking for anyone but myself...and if I love the attempt recovering alcoholics make etc....and it's a FACT that I love it....you're not in a position to disagree with that buddy :)
As for the second quote, unless you're saying you DON'T think the attempt is important I'm not sure what that's about - unless you're taking my inventory about something else, in which case a little more openness and honesty would also be appreciated. And er, aren't you offering ME what you've got in that post? lol
I'm confused, but that's ok, it's human.
Best wishes,
Martin
I thought everything was either a suggestion or an opinion, so what is the harm..?
I'm not sure what your saying skg...Failing to be honest is the disease at work, so it is a no brainer that only vigorous and thorough honesty will bring recovery. I think we all know that. Honesty for me doesn't come all at once with a virtuous flourish. I have been vigorously honest and then fell back into old thinking and ended up drinking. Holding onto that honesty is obviously the key to staying sober, but suggesting that attempting honesty means nothing unless you leave no stone unturned, trivializes the long process some of us go through before we are transparently honest..but that is just one drunk's opinion.
Dods
I'm not sure what your saying skg...Failing to be honest is the disease at work, so it is a no brainer that only vigorous and thorough honesty will bring recovery. I think we all know that. Honesty for me doesn't come all at once with a virtuous flourish. I have been vigorously honest and then fell back into old thinking and ended up drinking. Holding onto that honesty is obviously the key to staying sober, but suggesting that attempting honesty means nothing unless you leave no stone unturned, trivializes the long process some of us go through before we are transparently honest..but that is just one drunk's opinion.
Dods
Martin. I think for every attempt we make in our recovery to be honest with ourselves it is a step further in the right direction and another step closer to finding who we are and what we are searching for. No matter how many attempts we have to make it is better than just giving up. So yeah I see every attempt as a sign of recovery. We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves. Take care and God bless.
Hummmm....I guess I took it completely different. Skg's post reminded me of something my sponsor (I had one when I got off speed) used to tell me. She used to say "If you're trying you're lying." That was her blunt way of telling me to quit fighting everything, be honest and get on with it and my recovery.
I guess the trouble with words and their meanings is that different things mean different things to different people. I believe I have a responsibility to communicate clearly (which is why I keep trying lol), but like all human beings I can only TRY to achieve clarity because the outcome is not in my control; the MEANING others take from my communication is their business as much as it is mine. That's why dialogue is important and powerful; in conversation we clarify meaning and distil the essence.
imho.
So, to try to clarify MY meaning:
I love that people choose to turn willingness into action and I accept that this results in progress, not perfection.
I can only attempt honesty. I do not believe it is possible for any human being to be completely honest with themselves all of the time. I accept I might be wrong and if anyone here believes they are always completely honest with themselves I congratulate them. The closest I get to that is recognising that I am NOT always completely honest with myself. lol Just trying to be.
I can manage conscious honesty without much difficulty - and I can see where that sponsor had a point there Val, if that's what he meant - Quit "trying" and BE. If you know you're NOT being honest, just BE honest. What's difficult about that? lol very good point.
But being honest was always a rule I took pride in obeying....there is only one occasion I can think of when I told a deliberate, premeditated lie to my own advantage. It's the unconscious defences that are tricky for me....like the fact that it was actually someone ELSE'S rule about lying that I was obeying....so was I being honest and had reason to be content with my behaviour? Or was I just being controlled by another's wishes installed in me long ago and deluding myself that I had integrity? That I was freely choosing honesty?
I found THAT question quite a tough one to KNOW the honest answer to, however hard I tried. For me, finding myself - in the spiritual sense - is key to this....it spirals around....I find a little bit of myself and along with it comes the knowledge that THIS is true and THAT way of thinking is clearer and more honest than THIS way....and if I practise THAT to the best of my flawed human ability then I find ANOTHER little piece of my true spiritual self and that results in ANOTHER thing becoming clearer and if I practise THAT thing.....and so on...baby steps, progress not perfection, clarity from chaos.
I take no credit for this other than willingness and trying; it's all a gift, and I'm incredibly grateful for it and for this space to work it out in and to everyone here for your help in forcing me to clarify my thoughts and feelings.
Thank you.
Martin.
ps.lol....and how likely is it that I only ever told one premeditated lie? Yet that IS all I can remember. How much more likely is it that I am protecting myself from a much less palatable truth? Consciously, it's true that I can only remember one. But honestly....it MUST be more, mustn't it? lol...I can't tell you how many though...and if I could then I would REALLY be being honest with myself...I'm not there yet. Perfection eludes me, but the attempt is all important imho.
I might not have achieved my aim of making the meaning of my original post any clearer, in which case I apologise, but the attempt has helped my recovery, so thank you.
M
imho.
So, to try to clarify MY meaning:
I love that people choose to turn willingness into action and I accept that this results in progress, not perfection.
I can only attempt honesty. I do not believe it is possible for any human being to be completely honest with themselves all of the time. I accept I might be wrong and if anyone here believes they are always completely honest with themselves I congratulate them. The closest I get to that is recognising that I am NOT always completely honest with myself. lol Just trying to be.
I can manage conscious honesty without much difficulty - and I can see where that sponsor had a point there Val, if that's what he meant - Quit "trying" and BE. If you know you're NOT being honest, just BE honest. What's difficult about that? lol very good point.
But being honest was always a rule I took pride in obeying....there is only one occasion I can think of when I told a deliberate, premeditated lie to my own advantage. It's the unconscious defences that are tricky for me....like the fact that it was actually someone ELSE'S rule about lying that I was obeying....so was I being honest and had reason to be content with my behaviour? Or was I just being controlled by another's wishes installed in me long ago and deluding myself that I had integrity? That I was freely choosing honesty?
I found THAT question quite a tough one to KNOW the honest answer to, however hard I tried. For me, finding myself - in the spiritual sense - is key to this....it spirals around....I find a little bit of myself and along with it comes the knowledge that THIS is true and THAT way of thinking is clearer and more honest than THIS way....and if I practise THAT to the best of my flawed human ability then I find ANOTHER little piece of my true spiritual self and that results in ANOTHER thing becoming clearer and if I practise THAT thing.....and so on...baby steps, progress not perfection, clarity from chaos.
I take no credit for this other than willingness and trying; it's all a gift, and I'm incredibly grateful for it and for this space to work it out in and to everyone here for your help in forcing me to clarify my thoughts and feelings.
Thank you.
Martin.
ps.lol....and how likely is it that I only ever told one premeditated lie? Yet that IS all I can remember. How much more likely is it that I am protecting myself from a much less palatable truth? Consciously, it's true that I can only remember one. But honestly....it MUST be more, mustn't it? lol...I can't tell you how many though...and if I could then I would REALLY be being honest with myself...I'm not there yet. Perfection eludes me, but the attempt is all important imho.
I might not have achieved my aim of making the meaning of my original post any clearer, in which case I apologise, but the attempt has helped my recovery, so thank you.
M
Ok,
I asked for it and I'm getting it lol....I'm remembering a lot more dishonesty as I sit here.....my HP really does have a sense of humour. It's a good job I know He's on my side....lol
Take care,
Martin
I asked for it and I'm getting it lol....I'm remembering a lot more dishonesty as I sit here.....my HP really does have a sense of humour. It's a good job I know He's on my side....lol
Take care,
Martin
Martin. I'll leave it at this: The dog without the bone is the one doin' the barkin'.
Val. Yup.
Val. Yup.
Skq,
Have a pleasant night.
Martin.
Have a pleasant night.
Martin.
Arrg my head hurts, spin spin spin.
"If you're trying you're lying." not heard that one (time to reflect on it) because I can only try at his point in time,
I'm dealing with Jealously and Anger at the moment, hard to let go, but trying through talking about it honestly.
Think my problem here could also be accepting I cant control and cant manipulate my wife anymore. Yet I still try to, and it bugs me when I do,
But I've noticed I did in the past (big time) before I didnt.
I apologize to her, yet I must not do it in the first place,
Boy do I need to progress through my steps, Still having problems there :-( Think its my perfectionism and not keeping it simple, and justifying I not got the time.
Love to all
"If you're trying you're lying." not heard that one (time to reflect on it) because I can only try at his point in time,
I'm dealing with Jealously and Anger at the moment, hard to let go, but trying through talking about it honestly.
Think my problem here could also be accepting I cant control and cant manipulate my wife anymore. Yet I still try to, and it bugs me when I do,
But I've noticed I did in the past (big time) before I didnt.
I apologize to her, yet I must not do it in the first place,
Boy do I need to progress through my steps, Still having problems there :-( Think its my perfectionism and not keeping it simple, and justifying I not got the time.
Love to all
By the way, does it not say in the BB
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I cant go through with this." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these princiles. We are not saints.
Hope I'm not barking up the wrong tree here or opened up a can of worms.
Each to their own,if it keeps them sober and clean for today.
Live & Let Live
I'm still a newcomer think i will be for some time to come, I can only learn from other and take what I can from it.
To be honest I struggle, and need friends like yourselves, to help me see the light. (low self esteme)
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I cant go through with this." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these princiles. We are not saints.
Hope I'm not barking up the wrong tree here or opened up a can of worms.
Each to their own,if it keeps them sober and clean for today.
Live & Let Live
I'm still a newcomer think i will be for some time to come, I can only learn from other and take what I can from it.
To be honest I struggle, and need friends like yourselves, to help me see the light. (low self esteme)
Hey Paul,
"If you're trying you're lying"
Back when I had a sponsor that is just one of the things she would say to me when I was spinning my wheels and continuing to live in the problem. She would be riding me and I would tell her, "I am trying damnit!" Then she would say, "If you're trying you're lying!" I would get so damn mad at her.
Then she would ask me if I was really trying. Was I really working on my sobriety and putting it first. Was I really getting down to the real issues with my addiction or was I still spinning in the shoulda, woulda, coulda's. Well when I broke it down simply... no I really wasn't. So me saying that I was really trying was a lie. I was making excuse after excuse. So I don't think she meant it literally that my efforts were for not but she was trying to get me to see that I wasn't really doing the work. That statement has stayed with me all these years later.
Any method someone finds sobriety with is awesome. Everyone has to find their own path.
Have a great sober evening Paul. :-)
"If you're trying you're lying"
Back when I had a sponsor that is just one of the things she would say to me when I was spinning my wheels and continuing to live in the problem. She would be riding me and I would tell her, "I am trying damnit!" Then she would say, "If you're trying you're lying!" I would get so damn mad at her.
Then she would ask me if I was really trying. Was I really working on my sobriety and putting it first. Was I really getting down to the real issues with my addiction or was I still spinning in the shoulda, woulda, coulda's. Well when I broke it down simply... no I really wasn't. So me saying that I was really trying was a lie. I was making excuse after excuse. So I don't think she meant it literally that my efforts were for not but she was trying to get me to see that I wasn't really doing the work. That statement has stayed with me all these years later.
Any method someone finds sobriety with is awesome. Everyone has to find their own path.
Have a great sober evening Paul. :-)
Well, how ever many attempts it takes I consider myself fortunate. There are those who aren't so lucky.
It all really comes down to "Just Do It". Or, "Get er Done".
The BB suggests we be honest and fearless from the start. Perhaps someone else had a few too many attempts, like me. I believe it starts with willingness.
Love and tolerance.
It all really comes down to "Just Do It". Or, "Get er Done".
The BB suggests we be honest and fearless from the start. Perhaps someone else had a few too many attempts, like me. I believe it starts with willingness.
Love and tolerance.
I think the reason the saying "take what you like and leave the rest" is so useful is because it underlines the fact that our unconscious minds project into another's words and deeds that which WE, as a unique individual, need to hear to move towards the light, towards self-awareness and real honesty, whatever the words actually SAY or the author actually MEANS.
Just another wonderful example of our inners selves at work, trying to cut through the crap of introjection, projection, transference, projective identification yada, yada, yada. The 12 steps and principles and so many of the sayings of 12 step movements are incedibly powerful distillations of therepeutic processes arrived at by - who knows what, but I might say God working through people who have need of Him.
A miracle indeed.
imho, not me being clever or trying to impress, just a shiny thing I found in a book, the fruit of someone else's hard work and insight that might help someone else here understand something just as - or differently! lol - to the way it's helped me.
Take what you like and leave the rest lol (you will anyway - how else can it be, you're not inside MY head, you read what the words mean FOR YOU).
Martin
ps.
The saying in the rooms for this is something like: "whenever you're pointing at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you." That's absolutely brilliant, and all anyone needs to know, but if anyone who is like me is TOLD what to do by someone else...my natural defence mechanism works against listening.....why should I TRUST some guy I've never met? Just because he's an alkie and SAYS he's cured or whatever? Crazy. So to stay and listen I'd either I'd have to have experienced sufficient acceptance, empathy and congruence to be able to listen, or be utterly broken and unable to resist him and his words of wisdom, OR I'd run from the room like a man pursued by child abusers (transference - seeing in someone TODAY the things I once saw in someone ELSE long ago).
I love learning this stuff. Others will hate it. That's ok. Whatever works for you.
Just another wonderful example of our inners selves at work, trying to cut through the crap of introjection, projection, transference, projective identification yada, yada, yada. The 12 steps and principles and so many of the sayings of 12 step movements are incedibly powerful distillations of therepeutic processes arrived at by - who knows what, but I might say God working through people who have need of Him.
A miracle indeed.
imho, not me being clever or trying to impress, just a shiny thing I found in a book, the fruit of someone else's hard work and insight that might help someone else here understand something just as - or differently! lol - to the way it's helped me.
Take what you like and leave the rest lol (you will anyway - how else can it be, you're not inside MY head, you read what the words mean FOR YOU).
Martin
ps.
The saying in the rooms for this is something like: "whenever you're pointing at someone else, three fingers are pointing back at you." That's absolutely brilliant, and all anyone needs to know, but if anyone who is like me is TOLD what to do by someone else...my natural defence mechanism works against listening.....why should I TRUST some guy I've never met? Just because he's an alkie and SAYS he's cured or whatever? Crazy. So to stay and listen I'd either I'd have to have experienced sufficient acceptance, empathy and congruence to be able to listen, or be utterly broken and unable to resist him and his words of wisdom, OR I'd run from the room like a man pursued by child abusers (transference - seeing in someone TODAY the things I once saw in someone ELSE long ago).
I love learning this stuff. Others will hate it. That's ok. Whatever works for you.
Hi Vally *waves*
I totally get what your sponsor was telling you.
In the words of my fave philosopher Yoda "Do or do not, there is not try."
Its really saying that "trying" is just giving you an excuse to fail. Trying is really about resistance. doing is about acceptance.
It seems unfair on the face of it - but its not. If you stop resisting, and at a deep level find acceptance, then you are no longer trying but doing within that moment.
To me that is what your sponsor was trying to get across - and its a genuine truth too.
Idgie
I totally get what your sponsor was telling you.
In the words of my fave philosopher Yoda "Do or do not, there is not try."
Its really saying that "trying" is just giving you an excuse to fail. Trying is really about resistance. doing is about acceptance.
It seems unfair on the face of it - but its not. If you stop resisting, and at a deep level find acceptance, then you are no longer trying but doing within that moment.
To me that is what your sponsor was trying to get across - and its a genuine truth too.
Idgie
.....and there you have it Soul Sister Idgie! That's exactly it! Glad you stopped by pal. :-)
