I am pulling this out from comments on another post.
HONESTY: "And it is so odd because I believe in brutal honesty and just haven't applied it in this crazy life of mine so I guess it's time to stop looking at her actions and start watching my own. "
what stops us from being honest when we are talking to our addicted loved one. why cant we just SAY what it is. they hide from the truth. we help them hide from the truth. they do something wrong, not follow the rules, we make excuses, we say we understand them, we help them stay in it. we support the secrets and lies.
they lie, we know it is a lie, we give in anyway....
when we wake up and stop helping them hide, it is better for us and better for them.
example: my son said recently - I had one car accident and got banished to florida.
I simply said - no, that's not what happened. he said - yes it is. I said - no it isn't.
I did not go into details to prove I was right and he is wrong. (he had 3 totaled cars - said the insurance company is a scam, two of them weren't really totaled (really?),he had been abusing drugs (oxy, xan) for over a year which led to the accidents, and not paying rent, and not having money for food, and asking us for money over and over, and 2 rehabs, this is the reason he was banished to florida. not bc of one accident )
even now, I say something like " if you stop spending your money on -- "stuff" --- you will be able to pay your rent.
Is this honest enough? Do we all know what "stuff" means? By not saying everything, does it give him a shadow to hide in?
DISSCUSSION about this?
FEAR - I think I have feared that if I am so honest and rub their nose in it, they will feel worse about themselves and I fear they will harm themselves. after all they threaten they will. and I know while under the influence or in a bad state at the moment, they might pull it off, where if they were sober, they would not. SO - do you have to pick the right moment to be honest.
BELIEVE - we want to believe them - they say they are trying etc.... we just wait - maybe if they pull out of this crap on their own, we wont have to say the crappy honest things we want to say.
BAD GUY - we don't want to be the bad guy to hurt our loved ones feelings - once we say it, we cant take it back.
And this is where detaching comes in...reminding...asking...discussing. ..isn't being honest...you know he is lying...calling him on it...discussing it..going into it...isn't being honest...honesty is not engaging in it ...honesty doesn't mean ignoring it...it means disengaging...not playing into the drama...whether you fear or not the outcome..you cant change it...you cant make us see it...want to see it...or do something else...you engage because you are not being honest with yourself...your still playing the game...still trying to get through ...still trying to help...and still trying to fix it...honesty is knowing that you can't change it...cure it or control it...honesty is knowing it is your fear...not ours...you have nothing to prove...we must.. if we want it..you only need to be honest to yourself...you don't have to listen...correct....be there...or decide if we are trying...clean...or using. ..it's not your call...
Word, Con. I was going to start a new thread in order to not hijack anyone else's post but your advice/comments posted here are so spot on. I swear, you're like an oracle or something. I really needed to read this today.
Honesty is looking at our loved ones and saying that drugs/addiction changed them. Honesty is accepting this. Honesty is loving them in spite of this change and disengaging to protect ourselves. Honesty is looking at how we love them to death with our "help" and stopping to protect them. And honesty is recognizing that we, as their loved ones, have absolutely no control over them and letting go and letting God.
Con and hurtingmom hit the nail on the head! Well said--well said!!!
NY were you in my head!!
Thoughts like that go around and around constantly. I can't take it, I want it to stop, but If I stop it is he going to die? probably will it be my fault for not trying one more time.
Will he robbed someone because he needed a fix so bad? When I hit bottom , my bottom for enabling my son when I sent him $50 and he used it and almost lost his arm. It was my fault for sending it, and my fault that surgeons and other people spent millions of dollars to save his life, his arm. And where is he? no quilt, no remorse. Nothing. Once I became honest with myself that he was only interested in what I could give him, I stop. He disappeared. So in the end I did loose.
He is alive maybe? jail maybe? I just don't know.
But now my focus is back where is belongs, me, my husband, grandchildren and children. My life, living it.
Thank you Both, Lynn I can only give you big hugs.xxx
Sue
Thoughts like that go around and around constantly. I can't take it, I want it to stop, but If I stop it is he going to die? probably will it be my fault for not trying one more time.
Will he robbed someone because he needed a fix so bad? When I hit bottom , my bottom for enabling my son when I sent him $50 and he used it and almost lost his arm. It was my fault for sending it, and my fault that surgeons and other people spent millions of dollars to save his life, his arm. And where is he? no quilt, no remorse. Nothing. Once I became honest with myself that he was only interested in what I could give him, I stop. He disappeared. So in the end I did loose.
He is alive maybe? jail maybe? I just don't know.
But now my focus is back where is belongs, me, my husband, grandchildren and children. My life, living it.
Thank you Both, Lynn I can only give you big hugs.xxx
Sue
Ugh.. I know, I know..... keep yourself in a good place mentally. pray that your son is safe and his angels watch over him.
we put my son back on the plane with a plan. as soon as he hit the ground, the plan is f'd up. I am giving him ultimatum today. go back to the hwh that we trust or go back to the airport. (I'd rather he live in the airport - no hotel fees) Seriously - my daughter/his sister has offered to take him in and I am all for it, he is not so sure, but I dont care if it lasts two weeks or two months. He is stuck in the frying pan where he is and is not capable of getting out on his own, and it is just going to cost us $$. He just does not have the skills at this time to sustain himself. (knots in my stomach today. wish I could pull the blankets over my head.)
I am not chasing him with a handful of cash waiting for a turn around.
I have my moments of relapsing, but now it only takes me a few days to wake up, not a few months.
Anyone who says drugs are benign has not lived this life. Havent doctors seen enough of this!!
My niece works in a hospital - she sees it every day.... people coming in, trying to get a fix.
I dont understand how it is pouring into the streets so fast and so much and the police can't do enough about it, except deal with the problems that stem from it.
more people die every day from this, not terrioism -- whatever -- late for work!
I have more fear in my body over this in the past years, not over terriorist.
Yes - we stop by being honest - he is NOT doing the right thing - cut him off - stop believing the BS - stop keeping the secrets - stop enabling it to continue!
we put my son back on the plane with a plan. as soon as he hit the ground, the plan is f'd up. I am giving him ultimatum today. go back to the hwh that we trust or go back to the airport. (I'd rather he live in the airport - no hotel fees) Seriously - my daughter/his sister has offered to take him in and I am all for it, he is not so sure, but I dont care if it lasts two weeks or two months. He is stuck in the frying pan where he is and is not capable of getting out on his own, and it is just going to cost us $$. He just does not have the skills at this time to sustain himself. (knots in my stomach today. wish I could pull the blankets over my head.)
I am not chasing him with a handful of cash waiting for a turn around.
I have my moments of relapsing, but now it only takes me a few days to wake up, not a few months.
Anyone who says drugs are benign has not lived this life. Havent doctors seen enough of this!!
My niece works in a hospital - she sees it every day.... people coming in, trying to get a fix.
I dont understand how it is pouring into the streets so fast and so much and the police can't do enough about it, except deal with the problems that stem from it.
more people die every day from this, not terrioism -- whatever -- late for work!
I have more fear in my body over this in the past years, not over terriorist.
Yes - we stop by being honest - he is NOT doing the right thing - cut him off - stop believing the BS - stop keeping the secrets - stop enabling it to continue!
I try to practice "rigorous honesty" as described in HOW IT WORKS
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10..._howitworks.pdf
BRUTAL honesty is .. well ...... brutal - to you and me.
My quote "honesty" is just really my opinion which often blows in the wind like a dry leaf.
When I find my true opinion (as best I can discern it, sorting out my neurotic & psychotic tendencies) then temper it with God's Grace (as best I can interpret it) ..... I come to what I believe AA means by "rigorous" honesty.
All the best to everyone on this spiritual journey of being restored to sanity.
Bob R.
http://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10..._howitworks.pdf
BRUTAL honesty is .. well ...... brutal - to you and me.
My quote "honesty" is just really my opinion which often blows in the wind like a dry leaf.
When I find my true opinion (as best I can discern it, sorting out my neurotic & psychotic tendencies) then temper it with God's Grace (as best I can interpret it) ..... I come to what I believe AA means by "rigorous" honesty.
All the best to everyone on this spiritual journey of being restored to sanity.
Bob R.
PB - thanks for the info and reminders. I have had a flu last weekend, back to work, still weak... I am so physically and mentally weak from the illness and the kids recent issue and trying to work when Im at work.... i could barely stand reading How it Works --- I didnt even want to read it, dont have the energy to digest it.... ugh..... lol.... I feel like probably how the addict feels - just spent and no where to go but down.... but it is my son who got me into this position - I did not create it.
the more you post, you convince me. I do believe a person has to stay in the program - what ever that program is that works for them. today I am hoping my son buys-in.
the more you post, you convince me. I do believe a person has to stay in the program - what ever that program is that works for them. today I am hoping my son buys-in.
Mtngirl......all I could think of. ..was...Oracle. ..Oracle ....what a cool name for a band...isn't that a band name already?..what was their/is music...damn....lol
Con - I'm glad you felt inspiration for a band name! I googled Oracle and found there was a band called Oracle the Band....I was thinking a different band name might be "Auricle" and it would also be a play on words, but then thought better of it since a band named Auricle sounds like a bunch of medical professional dweebs with amps. The other word I was searching for when I initially posted was "auger" or "soothsayer", which IMHO also sounds like a great name for a rock band. Have fun imagining!
JUL
JUL
LMFAO...you just made me bust out laughing!!...lol...lol.....auricle...medical...lol....omg...can't stop....ha ha ha ha ha....s***. ..that's hilarious! !!!
LOLOL.
Con you could write songs, about mothers who addicts have use emotional blackmail. Make a fortune and then help us poor parents who need a free day from life!!
NY,
Careful with your daughter, my youngest son, twice took his brother in and what did he get for his trouble? ready, his brother scared his wife to death, they were afraid of being rob by druggie friends. and his younger brother had to hide all prescriptions and wallet, couldn't live in his own home peacefully.
It's a double edge sword, do you want this for your daughter? xx
Sue
Con you could write songs, about mothers who addicts have use emotional blackmail. Make a fortune and then help us poor parents who need a free day from life!!
NY,
Careful with your daughter, my youngest son, twice took his brother in and what did he get for his trouble? ready, his brother scared his wife to death, they were afraid of being rob by druggie friends. and his younger brother had to hide all prescriptions and wallet, couldn't live in his own home peacefully.
It's a double edge sword, do you want this for your daughter? xx
Sue
Helplessness - UGH, Yes, I just read your other post about your younger son taking in his brother. My daughter really wants to do this. but you are right, we have high hopes, but also doubts. She thinks since he will be in a place he has not been before, that his ability to find drugs will be slim.... we all know, he just has to hang around somewhere long enough and it will find him.
I believe they both have good intentions. he says he will stay with her for a few weeks and then go back to the hwh/sober living in florida, that we know is a good program. first sign of a problem he will be back on the plane. she has been clean for 3 years and I think she wants to show him that it can be done.
yes, double edged sword. fifty/fifty chance there will be a good outcome. I think the main idea is to give him a place to be clean long enough to change his thinking.
I do, very strongly, think that he needs the support of NA, programs, long term, to keep on track.
he is agreeing to go back to the sober living to prove he can stay clean. I think his next hope is to come back home, get a job, and be normal. What he and my husband do not understand is the mental component --- we all have to work on that and change our knee-jerk reactions.
--- this addresses other posts about husband -- my husband thinks he can fix things (tickets, dmv) dust him off, get a job lined up, and everything will be fine. "just get a good job"
my husband's motivation for cleaning up tickets is so son can have clean license and get a job, and avoid jail bc of a non-appearance warrent.
my argument has been that our son has to do the work to clean up the license, get his own feet to the courthouse and get his own feet to dmv.
I push for alternative medical therapies while getting clean bc I know son has to do some work from the inside out, and also to address what ever pain he does have from injuries... etc... my husband does not believe in this... I see my husband putting some bandaids on the kid and sending him back to war, with out healing the 'injuries' that got him there or changing behavior, and not taking into account that his job environment had something to do with it... but since that is the best skill he knows... dad convinces son to go back to it....
I know it does NOT help for my husband to do the leg work.... it is the same old dance. As JEN has suggested --- WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK TOO, to change OUR behavior ..... JEN is correct ---- In Nar-anon we also a supposed to work the 12 steps -- take a long look at where WE have done wrong and change it..... maybe the trouble is that the family members think they dont have a problem bc THEY are not addicted.... yet addicted to helping in ways that dont help and THEY cant stop --- hey-jen- I think I just 'got' it!
If you pull back all of the situational details, it comes down to action and reaction... somewhere along the years there have been actions and reactions put in place by behaviors and interactions with eachother. these actions and reactions have been intrenched and are subconscience. we have to see the action and reaction do not produce the results we want. WE have to change our behavior too.
I can not control any of the players.... can only control myself....
So... one step at a time....
PS - sister booked the flight for him after we said it was not a good idea to live with her and for him to go to hwh/sober living.. maybe he was not clean therefore avoiding hwh.... which is why we said do not go to sisters. he's saying he will stay 2 weeks and then go back to hwh. sounds like a lot of expense - plane fare - just for two week stay.... so we dont know what they are thinking. he is a gentle soul, so we are not worried about violence, or meanness.
another thought - they did this independantly, we had no control.... maybe that is a good thing.... we need to get our hands off his decisions. maybe he does need the confidence of his own decisions
I believe they both have good intentions. he says he will stay with her for a few weeks and then go back to the hwh/sober living in florida, that we know is a good program. first sign of a problem he will be back on the plane. she has been clean for 3 years and I think she wants to show him that it can be done.
yes, double edged sword. fifty/fifty chance there will be a good outcome. I think the main idea is to give him a place to be clean long enough to change his thinking.
I do, very strongly, think that he needs the support of NA, programs, long term, to keep on track.
he is agreeing to go back to the sober living to prove he can stay clean. I think his next hope is to come back home, get a job, and be normal. What he and my husband do not understand is the mental component --- we all have to work on that and change our knee-jerk reactions.
--- this addresses other posts about husband -- my husband thinks he can fix things (tickets, dmv) dust him off, get a job lined up, and everything will be fine. "just get a good job"
my husband's motivation for cleaning up tickets is so son can have clean license and get a job, and avoid jail bc of a non-appearance warrent.
my argument has been that our son has to do the work to clean up the license, get his own feet to the courthouse and get his own feet to dmv.
I push for alternative medical therapies while getting clean bc I know son has to do some work from the inside out, and also to address what ever pain he does have from injuries... etc... my husband does not believe in this... I see my husband putting some bandaids on the kid and sending him back to war, with out healing the 'injuries' that got him there or changing behavior, and not taking into account that his job environment had something to do with it... but since that is the best skill he knows... dad convinces son to go back to it....
I know it does NOT help for my husband to do the leg work.... it is the same old dance. As JEN has suggested --- WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK TOO, to change OUR behavior ..... JEN is correct ---- In Nar-anon we also a supposed to work the 12 steps -- take a long look at where WE have done wrong and change it..... maybe the trouble is that the family members think they dont have a problem bc THEY are not addicted.... yet addicted to helping in ways that dont help and THEY cant stop --- hey-jen- I think I just 'got' it!
If you pull back all of the situational details, it comes down to action and reaction... somewhere along the years there have been actions and reactions put in place by behaviors and interactions with eachother. these actions and reactions have been intrenched and are subconscience. we have to see the action and reaction do not produce the results we want. WE have to change our behavior too.
I can not control any of the players.... can only control myself....
So... one step at a time....
PS - sister booked the flight for him after we said it was not a good idea to live with her and for him to go to hwh/sober living.. maybe he was not clean therefore avoiding hwh.... which is why we said do not go to sisters. he's saying he will stay 2 weeks and then go back to hwh. sounds like a lot of expense - plane fare - just for two week stay.... so we dont know what they are thinking. he is a gentle soul, so we are not worried about violence, or meanness.
another thought - they did this independantly, we had no control.... maybe that is a good thing.... we need to get our hands off his decisions. maybe he does need the confidence of his own decisions
NY,
how is your son doing? did he go to his sisters?
xx
how is your son doing? did he go to his sisters?
xx
Yes he went to his sister's. idk if it will be 2 weeks or 2 months. Mostly it will be boring. which i think is ok. i think he needs time to be out of the daily crisis situations. and stop thinking like an addict. so we will see. my plan is to lay low and hope he stays put for as long as possible. unfortunately, my husband is eager for him to get a job and and so on, and does not like to let a sleeping dog lie.... so he will be poking with a stick. my husband called already, to see how things are going, and it has only been a few days. He does not understand that in order for our son to think for himself, dad has to stop telling him what to do. Neither of them understand that it is ok to do nothing for a few months while learning what it feels like to stay clean. he is a low stress situation that I think he should take advantage of. I would like some down time of NOT thinking about it! whatever happens I'm not going to jump in with a solution. He does not have the stress of paying high rent, etc... he should behave and stay with sister for a while, and deal with recovery.
son has only been at his sisters for 2 days, I told husband that he does not have to call again. stop calling them.
whatever. i'm just trying to rest and get my own stuff in order, which is always slow going! thanks for asking!
son has only been at his sisters for 2 days, I told husband that he does not have to call again. stop calling them.
whatever. i'm just trying to rest and get my own stuff in order, which is always slow going! thanks for asking!
Ny--
Glad you can maybe find some "down" time for yourself! Praying and thinking about you and hoping it all turns out like you hope!
As you probably read, I heard from my Chris and he text me, but it was for money or he will lose his truck, probably cause he took a title loan out on it without a job or anyway to pay it back!
We are staying firm and told him "NO"!! I just couldn't do it anymore! I am kicking my addiction! Withdrawal for me isn't fun but time will help I am sure!
Keep us posted and get some peace!
(((HUGS)) Lori
Glad you can maybe find some "down" time for yourself! Praying and thinking about you and hoping it all turns out like you hope!
As you probably read, I heard from my Chris and he text me, but it was for money or he will lose his truck, probably cause he took a title loan out on it without a job or anyway to pay it back!
We are staying firm and told him "NO"!! I just couldn't do it anymore! I am kicking my addiction! Withdrawal for me isn't fun but time will help I am sure!
Keep us posted and get some peace!
(((HUGS)) Lori
Yes, I read the other postings about your son. such a let down for you. you must have had one little thought that maybe he was getting his act together... nope. more money. loans. etc.
so sorry, it does become gloomy and isolating at times....
I am realistic that my son's chances are 50/50. I know that I can not keep dealing with it financially. we have tried to give just what we have to, but it still ends up being too much. I am sure you've been there, done that. I am seeing more and more clear that we just can not give any amount. and like you said, if you open the door for this $$ title loan, he will be back to calling every day for something.
The next time I talk to my son i will say, it is ok for him to live whatever life style he wants, but I can not pay for it...
Conclusion; my husband might be leaning toward letting our son back. if that happens, I am setting up the rules and enforcing them daily. Yup. I will need to be the bad guy.
so sorry, it does become gloomy and isolating at times....
I am realistic that my son's chances are 50/50. I know that I can not keep dealing with it financially. we have tried to give just what we have to, but it still ends up being too much. I am sure you've been there, done that. I am seeing more and more clear that we just can not give any amount. and like you said, if you open the door for this $$ title loan, he will be back to calling every day for something.
The next time I talk to my son i will say, it is ok for him to live whatever life style he wants, but I can not pay for it...
Conclusion; my husband might be leaning toward letting our son back. if that happens, I am setting up the rules and enforcing them daily. Yup. I will need to be the bad guy.
Everyone stays on his/her own side of the street...everyone knows the truth of whatever given situation...no need to beat it over the head. When we do that we are engaging in the dance, riding that merry-go-round...pick your metaphor.
My husband was also inclined to let qualifier daughter back. By then I was SO done. I very calmly told him that if he chose to do that, which he certainly had the right to do, I would have to leave. I said this not in any sort of threatening way, simply as a fact. I posed that I was not mentally well enough, not detached enough, not whatever enough, to believe that when faced with DD's reality I would not jump back into the fray - controlling, talking, adjusting, fixing, advising.
I AM PART OF THE DYNAMIC, one of the cogs that keeps the machine in motion. Remove a cog and the machine stops.working. I told him I completely understood his need to give her another chance...he wasn't done yet...just because I was, didn't mean he was in lockstep with me. I gave him the freedom to do as he saw fit, knowing I would not be there to...do whatever crazy thing I was doing to keep control. I was not abandoning him or her, simply freeing myself. He never felt threatened or blackmailed by it...he got it and changed his mind until we were both ready to let her come home.
Step away from it...addicts are not the only liars here...we lie loudest when we lie to ourselves.
Peace ~ M&M
My husband was also inclined to let qualifier daughter back. By then I was SO done. I very calmly told him that if he chose to do that, which he certainly had the right to do, I would have to leave. I said this not in any sort of threatening way, simply as a fact. I posed that I was not mentally well enough, not detached enough, not whatever enough, to believe that when faced with DD's reality I would not jump back into the fray - controlling, talking, adjusting, fixing, advising.
I AM PART OF THE DYNAMIC, one of the cogs that keeps the machine in motion. Remove a cog and the machine stops.working. I told him I completely understood his need to give her another chance...he wasn't done yet...just because I was, didn't mean he was in lockstep with me. I gave him the freedom to do as he saw fit, knowing I would not be there to...do whatever crazy thing I was doing to keep control. I was not abandoning him or her, simply freeing myself. He never felt threatened or blackmailed by it...he got it and changed his mind until we were both ready to let her come home.
Step away from it...addicts are not the only liars here...we lie loudest when we lie to ourselves.
Peace ~ M&M
M&M--
Yes and amen to what you said! I just can't do it anymore! If I continued on the path we were on we would be broke in less than two years trying to keep up with all his expenses, losses, and stupidity. We wouldn't have any left for our nursing home and I am sure he wouldn't give a care!
He is so messed up right now and only he can fix it. Took us 20 years to figure that out so guess we are the stupid ones and just lied to ourselves that it will get better this time!--Hah!
Am I angry?--YES! Angry mostly at myself for letting this go on so long. Now I just wait and pray that since we are not enabling in any way anymore, he will get better and so will we!
ps. he just text me and said he is so hungry it hurts. He is an hour away with no gas money. I said go to Salvation Army and he said that they told him not till tomorrow. I don't know what to believe. I know in my heart what I am doing is right but my heart hurts so bad!
Lori
Yes and amen to what you said! I just can't do it anymore! If I continued on the path we were on we would be broke in less than two years trying to keep up with all his expenses, losses, and stupidity. We wouldn't have any left for our nursing home and I am sure he wouldn't give a care!
He is so messed up right now and only he can fix it. Took us 20 years to figure that out so guess we are the stupid ones and just lied to ourselves that it will get better this time!--Hah!
Am I angry?--YES! Angry mostly at myself for letting this go on so long. Now I just wait and pray that since we are not enabling in any way anymore, he will get better and so will we!
ps. he just text me and said he is so hungry it hurts. He is an hour away with no gas money. I said go to Salvation Army and he said that they told him not till tomorrow. I don't know what to believe. I know in my heart what I am doing is right but my heart hurts so bad!
Lori
