Chris,
Im sorry that you think I am criticising AA. I feel I have been respectful in my posts but no-one has answered my questions so far.
best wishes
Sean
Hey Rizzo,
12 stepper just asked a simple question about what you meant by AA hurting people. But instead of answering you decided to engage in character assassination. I must admit that's real classy on your part.
Chris
12 stepper just asked a simple question about what you meant by AA hurting people. But instead of answering you decided to engage in character assassination. I must admit that's real classy on your part.
Chris
Sean I have found like any other group of people --winner's loser's and well just plain UGLY.
There is no right way to stay sober. I will state this Sean based on the premise that you the addict do 365 meetings one day at a time?? you have a much better shot at living through a good life.
I am a firm believer that without AA you fail to learn coping skills needed to deal with your disease. JMO--AA is not for life.
I have found many people who replace MEETINGS instead of drinking. IMO dry drunks--the worst drunk of all.
AA certainly helps but I only know about me Sean. Long story but I am still kicking. A lot has to do with AA but at the end of the day? its the addicts decision on how he /she lives `her day.
Although MY DOC last entered my body in 1988 I am screwed with all mind altering drugs. Duee to my health operations lead to pills and other health issue's Long boring story.
Sean I still feel I can dring socially. I live one day at a time. Not many days include alcohol but a few have.(STUPID)
How he/she decides how to deal with life and its curve balls is up to us addicts.
Why do people fight about AA? Who gives a rats $ss how you stay sober?
Common sense IMO hanging out with a bunch of Non drinkers is going to be better for ME than hanging out with a bunch of JUNKIES? HELLO? That is just me Sean.
You have a good one--
There is no right way to stay sober. I will state this Sean based on the premise that you the addict do 365 meetings one day at a time?? you have a much better shot at living through a good life.
I am a firm believer that without AA you fail to learn coping skills needed to deal with your disease. JMO--AA is not for life.
I have found many people who replace MEETINGS instead of drinking. IMO dry drunks--the worst drunk of all.
AA certainly helps but I only know about me Sean. Long story but I am still kicking. A lot has to do with AA but at the end of the day? its the addicts decision on how he /she lives `her day.
Although MY DOC last entered my body in 1988 I am screwed with all mind altering drugs. Duee to my health operations lead to pills and other health issue's Long boring story.
Sean I still feel I can dring socially. I live one day at a time. Not many days include alcohol but a few have.(STUPID)
How he/she decides how to deal with life and its curve balls is up to us addicts.
Why do people fight about AA? Who gives a rats $ss how you stay sober?
Common sense IMO hanging out with a bunch of Non drinkers is going to be better for ME than hanging out with a bunch of JUNKIES? HELLO? That is just me Sean.
You have a good one--
Try RET (Rational Emotive Therapy or SOS). These are programs that are based on facts and the truth, not like " " and the " " steps (yeah right).
At these meetings every topic is welcome. If you read something in the newspaper about a new treatment or drug to curb alcoholism, it would be welcomed. (Can you imagine the disgust and disbelief at an AA meeting if you said something that wasn't to there liking??)
Believe in yourself and not some make belief ferry. Check out all the other alternatives, even the people that stay sober by themselves (with no outside help) have a higher rate of success that AA.
Proven Fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At these meetings every topic is welcome. If you read something in the newspaper about a new treatment or drug to curb alcoholism, it would be welcomed. (Can you imagine the disgust and disbelief at an AA meeting if you said something that wasn't to there liking??)
Believe in yourself and not some make belief ferry. Check out all the other alternatives, even the people that stay sober by themselves (with no outside help) have a higher rate of success that AA.
Proven Fact!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rizzo its nobodys purpose on this board to "force the 12 steps" on you. you state you are still drinking, you are drinking becuz you choose to. if you are looking for a easier way there is none. everyone stops using and drinking the same way 12 step or not a day at a time. its a struggle for us all and arguing whether aa works or not is not the issue. The issue is can you not drink a day at a time? you are baiting everyone for a fight that disagrees and have been warned twice by the moderators. this is a recovery board open and welcome to all seeking a clean life. what is your agenda? whatever road you choose good luck
Carol
Carol
12 stepping, great post. I honestly believe that some people will never find sobriety without AA.
I guess I only have one issue with AA, its inflated success rate. The notion that rarely have we seen anyone fail who has worked the prgram is just not true. If AA were to say "this is a program we offer, if you can find something in it that helps you stay sober, then you are welcome here" I doubt anyone would have cause to argue.
There is a spontaneous remission rate (where people get clean/sober without outside help) which cant be ignored. The question is that overall, is AA more effective than the spontaneous remission rate? The likely answer is that within a given population of substance abusers, a proportion will recover without outside help but there is a sector that will never achieve sobriety that way.
This is an Interesting Article that reviews the research on spontaneous remission.
best wishes to you all.
I guess I only have one issue with AA, its inflated success rate. The notion that rarely have we seen anyone fail who has worked the prgram is just not true. If AA were to say "this is a program we offer, if you can find something in it that helps you stay sober, then you are welcome here" I doubt anyone would have cause to argue.
There is a spontaneous remission rate (where people get clean/sober without outside help) which cant be ignored. The question is that overall, is AA more effective than the spontaneous remission rate? The likely answer is that within a given population of substance abusers, a proportion will recover without outside help but there is a sector that will never achieve sobriety that way.
This is an Interesting Article that reviews the research on spontaneous remission.
best wishes to you all.
Sean never knew some actuary declared a success rate--LOL--
People love to fight about AA--cracks me up.
I look at in a logical way. AA is like medicine. After so many meetings you should know how to take your medicine. (FOR ME)
There are people who swear that if you do not go to a meeting daily you will relapse. There right to there opinion.
Sean KISS --keep it simple stupid. I worry about my disease ONE DAY AT A TIME. End of story.
Take care Sean
People love to fight about AA--cracks me up.
I look at in a logical way. AA is like medicine. After so many meetings you should know how to take your medicine. (FOR ME)
There are people who swear that if you do not go to a meeting daily you will relapse. There right to there opinion.
Sean KISS --keep it simple stupid. I worry about my disease ONE DAY AT A TIME. End of story.
Take care Sean
Sean,
I didn't see your earlier post and no, I don't believe you're criticizing AA. The messages you put on here are always helpful and the tone respectful. It's apparent you know a lot about the topics you talk about and I look forward to having more dialogue with you in the future.
I seem to recall and earlier post on another thread where you said you live in Australia. Is that correct, or am I thinking of somebody else?
Have a great day,
Chris
I didn't see your earlier post and no, I don't believe you're criticizing AA. The messages you put on here are always helpful and the tone respectful. It's apparent you know a lot about the topics you talk about and I look forward to having more dialogue with you in the future.
I seem to recall and earlier post on another thread where you said you live in Australia. Is that correct, or am I thinking of somebody else?
Have a great day,
Chris
posted by RIZZO
and..
Given that you are drinking more than ever, and have tried everything under the sun, I take it you still haven't found the right direction? As for the chemical inbalance the allergy to ethanol, sounds like "I am not responsible" to me.
The problem I see with your approach is that you think your alcoholism is a disease, yet you think you can quit just on your own as if it is just an aberrant behavior. I would like to respectfully point out that many folks recovering who are hostile to AA are folks who believe that addiction is a choice and that they must make choices on what to do next and how. They would take a look at you and say, you want to be a drunk, you want to keep doing this. In a sense, yes, they do see it as a moral failing. See Stanley Peele's website to see what I mean.
So, given what you have said about yourself, I would be careful about bashing 12-step programs, many of the alternative methods would be giving you a very, very hard look.....
Not that I think you will be returning to this site anytime soon....assuming you are not a troll.....
| QUOTE |
40 years old and i've drank since I was 19. For the past 5 years it has progressed to the point where I drink everynight (drunk). I know I gotta quit and wish I could. Problem is that I look forward to drinking, |
and..
| QUOTE |
we all have the power in us if we just find the right direction. And, we don't drink because we have character defaults, we drink because we have a chemical imbalance and allergy to ethanol. Get your facts straight and quit misleading people with that AA garbage. |
Given that you are drinking more than ever, and have tried everything under the sun, I take it you still haven't found the right direction? As for the chemical inbalance the allergy to ethanol, sounds like "I am not responsible" to me.
The problem I see with your approach is that you think your alcoholism is a disease, yet you think you can quit just on your own as if it is just an aberrant behavior. I would like to respectfully point out that many folks recovering who are hostile to AA are folks who believe that addiction is a choice and that they must make choices on what to do next and how. They would take a look at you and say, you want to be a drunk, you want to keep doing this. In a sense, yes, they do see it as a moral failing. See Stanley Peele's website to see what I mean.
So, given what you have said about yourself, I would be careful about bashing 12-step programs, many of the alternative methods would be giving you a very, very hard look.....
Not that I think you will be returning to this site anytime soon....assuming you are not a troll.....
SP
You said "The notion that rarely have we seen anyone fail who has worked the prgram is just not true."
AA doesn't say that. It says "Rarely have we seen a person fail that has THOROUGHLY followed our path." I believe if someone follows the rules laid out in the Big Book they would have no problem staying sober. I know many people with double digit years sobriety. They are still following those same rules. It's worked for them. On the other hand I know many people that stop doing what the Big Book says and they decide to drink again. It's a personal choice. It all boils down to either you want to drink or you want to quit. How you get there isn't that important. How you stay that way is. Although AA is my way of staying sober, I have no problem with other's ways of staying sober if it works. Keeping an open mind is what makes the world go round.
You said "The notion that rarely have we seen anyone fail who has worked the prgram is just not true."
AA doesn't say that. It says "Rarely have we seen a person fail that has THOROUGHLY followed our path." I believe if someone follows the rules laid out in the Big Book they would have no problem staying sober. I know many people with double digit years sobriety. They are still following those same rules. It's worked for them. On the other hand I know many people that stop doing what the Big Book says and they decide to drink again. It's a personal choice. It all boils down to either you want to drink or you want to quit. How you get there isn't that important. How you stay that way is. Although AA is my way of staying sober, I have no problem with other's ways of staying sober if it works. Keeping an open mind is what makes the world go round.
When we think of cults, we usually think of bizarre religious sects, armed compounds, mind control and eccentric leaders. Most of us do not think of Alcoholics Anonymous (A.A.) as a cult, but I do.
Three years ago, I was in the grips of a serious drinking problem. Like most alcoholics, I rationalized my drinking, citing the many terrible circumstances in my life. Then, almost three years ago, I stopped drinking. Period. By myself.
Oh, I attended a half dozen or so A.A. meetings at the time, upon the advice of someone recommended by a friend. The woman who suggested A.A. to me was a licensed psychologist. She was a "recovered alcoholic" and was very active in A.A.
What I found at the meetings was a weird mixture of the deplorable and the laughable. It didn"t take long to notice that something was not quite level with this organization.
I was tipped off to A.A.'s strong cult qualities when the lady psychologist made a somewhat curious remark during the first week or two of my sobriety.
I had an uncle then (he died this past January) who had been an alcoholic prior to 1960. Uncle Ralph consumed, by his own subsequent admission, about a quart of whiskey a day. He stopped drinking without the assistance of A.A. when he met my aunt. It was a condition of their marriage that he stop drinking, and he did.
I remember my Uncle Ralph as a sweet, generous man during the thirty-odd years he was married to my aunt. He was not abusive or cruel, he worked hard, and made an excellent stepfather to my three girl cousins. When I mentioned Uncle Ralph to the lady psychologist, stating that he'd quit drinking on his own, she immediately dismissed my observation with, "Oh, well, he's just a dry drunk." She of course had never met my uncle Ralph, knew positively nothing about his character and yet claimed to be able to diagnose him as a "dry drunk" strictly on the information that he hadn't progressed through the A.A.'s widely touted "twelve step program." Bear in mind, this was a licensed psychologist making an incredibly spurious, rash judgment.
Of course, all cults have this in common: they reject and label as untouchables any who do not embrace their particular version of "Truth." To died-in-the-wool communists, non-believers are "bootlickers of the capitalists," or "counter-revolutionary hooligans." To the born again fundamentalist Christian, non-believers are "agents of Satan." To Moslems, Christians are "devils," and to Nazis, Jews are "swine." To the Alcoholics Anonymous membership, anyone who stops drinking without chanting the mantras of cult founder Bill W. are "dry drunks," pure and simple. You don't even need to know anything more about the self-quitters -- the fact that they quit drinking without A.A. makes them dry drunks, a priori.
Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate suppressing A.A. or any other cult. I simply want you to know, in case you are a problem drinker and are toying around with the idea of quitting, that it's O.K. to develop your own solution to your own problem. The last thing you need when you undertake a major, radical transformation in your life is to be accused by a bunch of self-righteous fanatics of being "a dry drunk," whatever the hell that is.
The whole A.A. program hinges upon the alcoholic's acceptance of what A.A. calls a "higher power." Conversely, adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing, while the non-existent, the illusory, the hypothetical, is all. Self-respecting, proud, analytical achievers do not make good cult members. A cult follower must be stripped of his sense of individual worth -- in many sects, he is humiliated sexually, deprived of sensory stimuli, sequestered from the larger community, or otherwise manipulated to look upon himself as degraded and worthless. In A.A., you are plopped in a ring of cultists every evening and pressured to place your entire destiny in the hands of some "higher power."
When I began to ask hard questions about the nature of this "higher power," half expecting to hear some gibberish about "god," I learned (no kidding!) that one member even had his motorcycle represent his "higher power." What form of silliness is this that empowers motorcycles to cure us of alcoholism, I wondered.
At A.A. meetings, everyone sits around in a big circle. There are readings from "the Big Book," a not-very-well-written compendium of home-spun philosophy and anecdote authored by Bill W. and his colleagues some decades ago. Every cult needs its sacred writings, its revealed word. Members start talking about themselves and their alcoholism, and oddly, this sounds more like "self-criticism" under Mao's cultural revolution than anything therapeutic. In fact, it's all directed toward precisely the same end as "confession" in the Catholic church and Maoist "self-criticism" -- de-emphasis of the individual and a concomitant glorification of the ethereal, the other-worldly, the imaginary.
At some point, if you begin to question this "program" of A.A.'s, the talk gets tough and they start to lean on you. You are told that you can never recover on your own, that you are doomed to lapse over and over again into drinking binges, or at best, become a "dry drunk." (This is supposedly someone who has stopped drinking but still manifests all the unconscionable traits of a drunk: all the sociopathy, all the abusiveness, all the manipulative behaviors.)
The more you try to trot out examples of persons who have transformed their own lives under their own steam, the more the party line is thrown back at you: you are powerless against drink. Powerless. Any so-called examples of alcoholics who quit drinking without the twelve steps are in reality only examples of "dry drunks."
When I left A.A., I made the comment to someone that if I were indeed "powerless," I might as well commit suicide, because a life without any control over my destiny would be pointless and absurd. I stated again my conviction that I did not regard myself as powerless, and I went about my recovery in the most sensible way I could imagine. I removed alcohol from my home, I found some healthy pastimes to pursue (mountain climbing, writing, and painting) and, in the whirlwind breakup of my marriage, I devoted myself to staying afloat financially, making my new company prosper, and seeking out some like-minded companionship -- that was when I re-joined Mensa.
So, if you are determined to quit drinking, you can save yourself about three hundred sixty-five hours a year, plus travel time.
Try the "one-step" program, instead: just stop drinking. Believe me: you can do it.
I did.
Three years ago, I was in the grips of a serious drinking problem. Like most alcoholics, I rationalized my drinking, citing the many terrible circumstances in my life. Then, almost three years ago, I stopped drinking. Period. By myself.
Oh, I attended a half dozen or so A.A. meetings at the time, upon the advice of someone recommended by a friend. The woman who suggested A.A. to me was a licensed psychologist. She was a "recovered alcoholic" and was very active in A.A.
What I found at the meetings was a weird mixture of the deplorable and the laughable. It didn"t take long to notice that something was not quite level with this organization.
I was tipped off to A.A.'s strong cult qualities when the lady psychologist made a somewhat curious remark during the first week or two of my sobriety.
I had an uncle then (he died this past January) who had been an alcoholic prior to 1960. Uncle Ralph consumed, by his own subsequent admission, about a quart of whiskey a day. He stopped drinking without the assistance of A.A. when he met my aunt. It was a condition of their marriage that he stop drinking, and he did.
I remember my Uncle Ralph as a sweet, generous man during the thirty-odd years he was married to my aunt. He was not abusive or cruel, he worked hard, and made an excellent stepfather to my three girl cousins. When I mentioned Uncle Ralph to the lady psychologist, stating that he'd quit drinking on his own, she immediately dismissed my observation with, "Oh, well, he's just a dry drunk." She of course had never met my uncle Ralph, knew positively nothing about his character and yet claimed to be able to diagnose him as a "dry drunk" strictly on the information that he hadn't progressed through the A.A.'s widely touted "twelve step program." Bear in mind, this was a licensed psychologist making an incredibly spurious, rash judgment.
Of course, all cults have this in common: they reject and label as untouchables any who do not embrace their particular version of "Truth." To died-in-the-wool communists, non-believers are "bootlickers of the capitalists," or "counter-revolutionary hooligans." To the born again fundamentalist Christian, non-believers are "agents of Satan." To Moslems, Christians are "devils," and to Nazis, Jews are "swine." To the Alcoholics Anonymous membership, anyone who stops drinking without chanting the mantras of cult founder Bill W. are "dry drunks," pure and simple. You don't even need to know anything more about the self-quitters -- the fact that they quit drinking without A.A. makes them dry drunks, a priori.
Don't get me wrong. I do not advocate suppressing A.A. or any other cult. I simply want you to know, in case you are a problem drinker and are toying around with the idea of quitting, that it's O.K. to develop your own solution to your own problem. The last thing you need when you undertake a major, radical transformation in your life is to be accused by a bunch of self-righteous fanatics of being "a dry drunk," whatever the hell that is.
The whole A.A. program hinges upon the alcoholic's acceptance of what A.A. calls a "higher power." Conversely, adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing, while the non-existent, the illusory, the hypothetical, is all. Self-respecting, proud, analytical achievers do not make good cult members. A cult follower must be stripped of his sense of individual worth -- in many sects, he is humiliated sexually, deprived of sensory stimuli, sequestered from the larger community, or otherwise manipulated to look upon himself as degraded and worthless. In A.A., you are plopped in a ring of cultists every evening and pressured to place your entire destiny in the hands of some "higher power."
When I began to ask hard questions about the nature of this "higher power," half expecting to hear some gibberish about "god," I learned (no kidding!) that one member even had his motorcycle represent his "higher power." What form of silliness is this that empowers motorcycles to cure us of alcoholism, I wondered.
At A.A. meetings, everyone sits around in a big circle. There are readings from "the Big Book," a not-very-well-written compendium of home-spun philosophy and anecdote authored by Bill W. and his colleagues some decades ago. Every cult needs its sacred writings, its revealed word. Members start talking about themselves and their alcoholism, and oddly, this sounds more like "self-criticism" under Mao's cultural revolution than anything therapeutic. In fact, it's all directed toward precisely the same end as "confession" in the Catholic church and Maoist "self-criticism" -- de-emphasis of the individual and a concomitant glorification of the ethereal, the other-worldly, the imaginary.
At some point, if you begin to question this "program" of A.A.'s, the talk gets tough and they start to lean on you. You are told that you can never recover on your own, that you are doomed to lapse over and over again into drinking binges, or at best, become a "dry drunk." (This is supposedly someone who has stopped drinking but still manifests all the unconscionable traits of a drunk: all the sociopathy, all the abusiveness, all the manipulative behaviors.)
The more you try to trot out examples of persons who have transformed their own lives under their own steam, the more the party line is thrown back at you: you are powerless against drink. Powerless. Any so-called examples of alcoholics who quit drinking without the twelve steps are in reality only examples of "dry drunks."
When I left A.A., I made the comment to someone that if I were indeed "powerless," I might as well commit suicide, because a life without any control over my destiny would be pointless and absurd. I stated again my conviction that I did not regard myself as powerless, and I went about my recovery in the most sensible way I could imagine. I removed alcohol from my home, I found some healthy pastimes to pursue (mountain climbing, writing, and painting) and, in the whirlwind breakup of my marriage, I devoted myself to staying afloat financially, making my new company prosper, and seeking out some like-minded companionship -- that was when I re-joined Mensa.
So, if you are determined to quit drinking, you can save yourself about three hundred sixty-five hours a year, plus travel time.
Try the "one-step" program, instead: just stop drinking. Believe me: you can do it.
I did.
Rizzo drop it. AA is not for all. Your description of AA is 100% False.
People Justr ignore him and he will go play somewhere else.Probably with some beer caps.
good luck to you
People Justr ignore him and he will go play somewhere else.Probably with some beer caps.
good luck to you
Rizzo
I don't know where you got your information on the principles of AA but I never heard your version before. I've been around AA for 10 years and was never told
"adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing," I was told I am responsible for my actions, while drinking and while sober. Maybe you should have stuck around for a few more meetings.
I don't know where you got your information on the principles of AA but I never heard your version before. I've been around AA for 10 years and was never told
"adherents to the twelve-step program are expected to renounce any personal responsibility for, or control over, their problem. This blatant renunciation of the concept of free will is also a characteristic of every single other cult I can think of -- the individual counts for nothing," I was told I am responsible for my actions, while drinking and while sober. Maybe you should have stuck around for a few more meetings.
Many of the true believers in Alcoholics Anonymous actually believe that Bill Wilson's writings were inspired by God, just like the Bible. They say that Wilson wrote the Twelve Steps while receiving guidance from God. The faithful reverently pore over books like The Big Book, Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, and As Bill Sees It as if they were holy scriptures, rather than the ravings of a lunatic. Bill's writings in the Big Book -- "the first 164 pages" -- are considered to be so sacred that they cannot ever be updated, fixed, or changed. The 4th edition of the Big Book was just released, and the first 164 pages are still unchanged. Not a single lie or error was corrected.
The faithful stubbornly ignore the fact that the Big Book and Bill Wilson's other writings demonstrate all too clearly that he was suffering from Delusions of Grandeur, specifically "Delusional (Paranoid) Disorder, Grandiose Type, mental disorder number 297.10" as described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association, on pages 200 to 203 in the third edition (DSM-III-R), and on pages 297 to 301 in the fourth edition (DSM-IV).
Bill Wilson was also a textbook case of "Narcissistic Personality Disorder, mental disorder number 301.81" -- again, as described in the DSM-IV, on pages 658-661.
The faithful also pointedly ignore the overwhelming evidence that Bill Wilson was
* selfish, manipulative,
* superstitious,
* egotistical, arrogant,
* vicious,
* financially dishonest,
* a philandering sexual predator,
* a liar,
* a con artist, and
* insane.
The faithful even ignore the fact that Bill Wilson took sexual advantage of sick women who came to A.A. seeking help to avoid death from alcohol. While women were still shaky, cloudy-headed, and confused from alcohol poisoning and alcohol withdrawal, Bill Wilson was scheming to get into their pants. That is an especially heartless kind of exploitation of vulnerable people.
The faithful stubbornly ignore the fact that the Big Book and Bill Wilson's other writings demonstrate all too clearly that he was suffering from Delusions of Grandeur, specifically "Delusional (Paranoid) Disorder, Grandiose Type, mental disorder number 297.10" as described in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders of the American Psychiatric Association, on pages 200 to 203 in the third edition (DSM-III-R), and on pages 297 to 301 in the fourth edition (DSM-IV).
Bill Wilson was also a textbook case of "Narcissistic Personality Disorder, mental disorder number 301.81" -- again, as described in the DSM-IV, on pages 658-661.
The faithful also pointedly ignore the overwhelming evidence that Bill Wilson was
* selfish, manipulative,
* superstitious,
* egotistical, arrogant,
* vicious,
* financially dishonest,
* a philandering sexual predator,
* a liar,
* a con artist, and
* insane.
The faithful even ignore the fact that Bill Wilson took sexual advantage of sick women who came to A.A. seeking help to avoid death from alcohol. While women were still shaky, cloudy-headed, and confused from alcohol poisoning and alcohol withdrawal, Bill Wilson was scheming to get into their pants. That is an especially heartless kind of exploitation of vulnerable people.
I have never heard a more absurd description of AA than what Rizzo offered us. Everything he said about AA is so patently false it would take too long to go into. Of course, since Rizzo is still drinking it's not a surprise he's angry and defensive, not to mention delusional.
Chris
Chris
Where else can we find all this "overwhelming evidence" except in the deepest bowels of Rizzo's mind?
Bash all you want to culties!! It's still all proven facts!!!!!!
Chaz also showsoften through analysis of original data sourcesthat AA succeeds with relatively few (5% at most) of the massive numbers of alcoholics who wander through its meetings. The data which show this are general population surveys, AA's own membership studies, and research on outcomes of AA and other 12-step treatment (which forms the overwhelming majority of treatment programs in the U.S.). But AA is not concerned with data about its effectiveness or the numbers of people it leaves out in the cold. The fundamental goal of AA is to propagate the 12-step belief system and to support the small minority that finds this approach facilitative of recovery. This single-minded purpose has led to repeated ugly instances of career-endangering attacks on those who dare to gainsay AA's methods and success.
Chaz also showsoften through analysis of original data sourcesthat AA succeeds with relatively few (5% at most) of the massive numbers of alcoholics who wander through its meetings. The data which show this are general population surveys, AA's own membership studies, and research on outcomes of AA and other 12-step treatment (which forms the overwhelming majority of treatment programs in the U.S.). But AA is not concerned with data about its effectiveness or the numbers of people it leaves out in the cold. The fundamental goal of AA is to propagate the 12-step belief system and to support the small minority that finds this approach facilitative of recovery. This single-minded purpose has led to repeated ugly instances of career-endangering attacks on those who dare to gainsay AA's methods and success.
Anyone can cut and paste the orange papers. Do you have any thoughts of your own?
posted by RIZZO
Based on your very first post to start this topic, no, you haven't stopped drinking. If you have, you may want to consider editing your first post. But, oh well, all I can say is..can you spell T....R.....O.....L.....L?
| QUOTE |
Try the "one-step" program, instead: just stop drinking. Believe me: you can do it. I did. |
Based on your very first post to start this topic, no, you haven't stopped drinking. If you have, you may want to consider editing your first post. But, oh well, all I can say is..can you spell T....R.....O.....L.....L?
<post removed>
