I guess I am one of those people that figures, whatever works. I used to be a big AAer but I don't go to many meetings & I take anti-anxiety, A/D, and bi-polar medication so some people would say that I am not clean. At this point in my life, I appreciate the certainty in knowing that this is between me and my HP. It is no one elses call. The entire reason people seek recovery/sobriety is because they are miserable. Whatever helps to make the person not be miserable and continue the addictive behavior(s) than I applaud them.
Glad you shared and welcome Ralphey. Hope to hear more from you.
When I was using heavily last time, I remembered how awful the NA meetings were, but knew if you worked the program, it worked. I also knew in my heart (JMO) that taking sub while being in NA meant I would not be clean. So I thought I was screwed and that there was no way out.
Well, I got real, and returned to what I knew - NA meetings. It was completely different, lots of new folks this time, and tons of great recovery was to be found. It saved my life and keeps me clean.
I think it's great that people can get off the vicious cycle of opiates using sub. But if that's all they use, IMO they may be missing out on the spiritual growth that we addicts screwed ourselves out of for so long while in active addiction. They may be clean, but is it a "dry" clean, like a dry drunk? I'm just asking, not trying to be a smart a**. Now that I'm clean, I bet I could white-knuckle it for a time without NA, but I wouldn't be good for anything. Is that how sub is?
Well, I got real, and returned to what I knew - NA meetings. It was completely different, lots of new folks this time, and tons of great recovery was to be found. It saved my life and keeps me clean.
I think it's great that people can get off the vicious cycle of opiates using sub. But if that's all they use, IMO they may be missing out on the spiritual growth that we addicts screwed ourselves out of for so long while in active addiction. They may be clean, but is it a "dry" clean, like a dry drunk? I'm just asking, not trying to be a smart a**. Now that I'm clean, I bet I could white-knuckle it for a time without NA, but I wouldn't be good for anything. Is that how sub is?
Well I got a few interesting replies...Me and my rhetoric...LOL..I knew Tim wouldn't like what I had to say...even questioning my serenity.I also did research...so you'll have to post the adverse side affects from long term use of Buprenorphine for me.One source which has a lot of information is from SuboxDoc...check him out on Youtube..he's an addictionologist and a recovering addict.He has a lot of information and knowledge about addiction and Suboxone.
No I wouldn't think someone would just jump right into Suboxone without trying cold turkey first...come on now Tim...how many addicts don't experience cold turkey at least a few times before trying something different.I think we all have that attitude of " I can do this by myself " before we finally realize we can't...so I don't why you would be concerned about that.
Yes, being on Suboxone let's us live a full enriched spiritual life just like anyone else can.It doesn't turn us into robots without any feelings..LOL...I feel like i've never been addicted.If there is no feeling of depression,anxiety,fatigue,withdrawal,or cravings what's the point of meetings? My church and my bible is where I am spiritually fed.
Like I said...Soboxone is not a miracle pill...but without all the adverse affects from withdrawals,it allowed me to work on myself and get on that spiritual path much sooner than I would of been able to...who knows,at the rate I was going I may never have reached this far.At 4mg every other day,I could afford it even without insurance.I just find it hard to find the down side to this medication.But because it bucks the traditional 12 step method,it will always be controversial.
If you want to feel sorry for me because i'm happy,content and enjoy my life...I don't mind.It really doesn't matter if you except my choice or not.My main purpose in all this was to share my experience in hopes of maybe helping someone else struggling as badly as I was.After reading some of the replies it sounds like others have found the benefits from Suboxone also.I have a feeling it's going to be used much more in the future.Already they have jumped the patients doctors could see from 30 to 100,and more and more doctors are signing up.
Thank you so much to those with the wonderful words of encouragement,and I appeciate the acknowledgment of the hard work I did.I too am happy for you.We all know too well how hard it is to escape the stinking thinking and being able to turn our lives completely around.Cowgirl mentioned she had 5 years!!! That is quite the accomplishment,congratulations!! and to you others that have multiple years! You know your doing something right when you wake up in the morning and look forward to the day...AMEN?
Ralphy
No I wouldn't think someone would just jump right into Suboxone without trying cold turkey first...come on now Tim...how many addicts don't experience cold turkey at least a few times before trying something different.I think we all have that attitude of " I can do this by myself " before we finally realize we can't...so I don't why you would be concerned about that.
Yes, being on Suboxone let's us live a full enriched spiritual life just like anyone else can.It doesn't turn us into robots without any feelings..LOL...I feel like i've never been addicted.If there is no feeling of depression,anxiety,fatigue,withdrawal,or cravings what's the point of meetings? My church and my bible is where I am spiritually fed.
Like I said...Soboxone is not a miracle pill...but without all the adverse affects from withdrawals,it allowed me to work on myself and get on that spiritual path much sooner than I would of been able to...who knows,at the rate I was going I may never have reached this far.At 4mg every other day,I could afford it even without insurance.I just find it hard to find the down side to this medication.But because it bucks the traditional 12 step method,it will always be controversial.
If you want to feel sorry for me because i'm happy,content and enjoy my life...I don't mind.It really doesn't matter if you except my choice or not.My main purpose in all this was to share my experience in hopes of maybe helping someone else struggling as badly as I was.After reading some of the replies it sounds like others have found the benefits from Suboxone also.I have a feeling it's going to be used much more in the future.Already they have jumped the patients doctors could see from 30 to 100,and more and more doctors are signing up.
Thank you so much to those with the wonderful words of encouragement,and I appeciate the acknowledgment of the hard work I did.I too am happy for you.We all know too well how hard it is to escape the stinking thinking and being able to turn our lives completely around.Cowgirl mentioned she had 5 years!!! That is quite the accomplishment,congratulations!! and to you others that have multiple years! You know your doing something right when you wake up in the morning and look forward to the day...AMEN?
Ralphy
It's not Suboxone I object to,it's your attitude.Lots of people take it here but don't have that defensive posturing.If someone is truly at peace with their decisions,they don't come on here and start attacking other's choices.It's like you're looking for someone to disagree or challenge you.I don't have the time or desire to debate it.It does work in certain situations and so does Methadone.
As far as checking out other website,no thanks.There's just as many anti-sub sites like subsux.com with people from the other end of the spectrum that are filled with hate and invectiveness.I want people to get clean and it that's what they need to do,I say great.
It would be like me coming on here and starting a topic"I hate Suboxone"! and then start trashing anyone who didn't go to NA.
I don't see anything peaceful,spritual or Christian in purposefully creating controversy....so with that,I will bow out.
As far as checking out other website,no thanks.There's just as many anti-sub sites like subsux.com with people from the other end of the spectrum that are filled with hate and invectiveness.I want people to get clean and it that's what they need to do,I say great.
It would be like me coming on here and starting a topic"I hate Suboxone"! and then start trashing anyone who didn't go to NA.
I don't see anything peaceful,spritual or Christian in purposefully creating controversy....so with that,I will bow out.
Ralphie - Part of the reason I go to NA is to help others. Even when I had a month clean it offered hope to some who couldn't imagine getting a day.
What would happen if you missed a day or two? Do you withdraw? I don't understand suboxen at all. If it's an opiate, then how come people don't get high from it? If you don't get high then why would there be any withdraw? Also another question I've always wondered is if you get stopped by the police and have a drug test. I know if you are under the influence of ativan (even though it's prescribed) you can still get arrested. (think Heather Locklear). What about suboxen? Would you test positive for opiates in a UA for a job or if you get stopped by the PO-lice? Also being an addict if you take one and you feel good, wouldn't you want to take another? Just curious. I'm not looking for a heated debate.
What would happen if you missed a day or two? Do you withdraw? I don't understand suboxen at all. If it's an opiate, then how come people don't get high from it? If you don't get high then why would there be any withdraw? Also another question I've always wondered is if you get stopped by the police and have a drug test. I know if you are under the influence of ativan (even though it's prescribed) you can still get arrested. (think Heather Locklear). What about suboxen? Would you test positive for opiates in a UA for a job or if you get stopped by the PO-lice? Also being an addict if you take one and you feel good, wouldn't you want to take another? Just curious. I'm not looking for a heated debate.
I'm happy you've found your way out of the insanity of addiction Ralphy.
As others have noticed though,I too can't see any serenity when hostility and defensiveness goes along with the 'recovery'.
I've used both suboxone and aa meetings on my recovery journey and believe both have positives to offer.
I'm not surprised that your physician would make the claim of no long term adverse effects re:sub as they only take an 8 hr course to qualify prescribing said opiate.
In that time you suffered from depression didn't you give any of the Ad's SSRI's a chance to see if they might have helped? It took several different trials of AD's for me and the right combo eventually was achieved.
There are some adverse effects.One particularly for men.Many have had testosterone level problems and have had to take meds for that during and post suboxone use.
It's imperative to have one's liver enzymes and functions checked while on suboxone.
The long/depression& PAWS many seem to experience due to the long half life of the drug is another problem.And getting off this drug has not been easy for many despite it's claim otherwise.
It prevents breastfeeding as it gos into the mothers milk....there are more possible adverse efftcs stated on the insert.
One that caught my eye was Reckitt and Bensickers statement that it produces dependence and addiction itself of the opioid type(that was in my insert) so to make the claim of no adverse effects short or long term is misleading.
I have nothing against sub and think it's a great tool .
But as any medication I would hope that anyone would take the time to research the benefits and risks in order to make an informed decision is all.Isn't the point of the medication a means to an end of being addicted and dependent on an opiate? To put the fire out so to speak?While I think sub is a great tool,I cannot compare it to insulin as some do.You die without insulin,you won't die without suboxone.
R&B and SAMHSA are good sites for accurate info.
The site mentions that pharmacological therapy alone rarely achieves long term success and should be combined w/ concurrent behavioral therapies.It said this point is so important that the physician must attest to his/her capacity to refer patients to submit to counseling and notify SAMHSA of this before they can start prescribing sub.
Just some things I wanted to share in fairness here.
I hope you can get some pro counseling.I did and believe it's as important as the medication.Part of the addictive mindset or way of thinking is to view things in black and white.Demon or angel,when life is really shades of grey..A good counselor was so helpful in helping me move beyond such thinking,letting go of resentments and playing the blame game..because frankly that's what I see in your posts.Best wishes on your recovery journey.
As others have noticed though,I too can't see any serenity when hostility and defensiveness goes along with the 'recovery'.
I've used both suboxone and aa meetings on my recovery journey and believe both have positives to offer.
I'm not surprised that your physician would make the claim of no long term adverse effects re:sub as they only take an 8 hr course to qualify prescribing said opiate.
In that time you suffered from depression didn't you give any of the Ad's SSRI's a chance to see if they might have helped? It took several different trials of AD's for me and the right combo eventually was achieved.
There are some adverse effects.One particularly for men.Many have had testosterone level problems and have had to take meds for that during and post suboxone use.
It's imperative to have one's liver enzymes and functions checked while on suboxone.
The long/depression& PAWS many seem to experience due to the long half life of the drug is another problem.And getting off this drug has not been easy for many despite it's claim otherwise.
It prevents breastfeeding as it gos into the mothers milk....there are more possible adverse efftcs stated on the insert.
One that caught my eye was Reckitt and Bensickers statement that it produces dependence and addiction itself of the opioid type(that was in my insert) so to make the claim of no adverse effects short or long term is misleading.
I have nothing against sub and think it's a great tool .
But as any medication I would hope that anyone would take the time to research the benefits and risks in order to make an informed decision is all.Isn't the point of the medication a means to an end of being addicted and dependent on an opiate? To put the fire out so to speak?While I think sub is a great tool,I cannot compare it to insulin as some do.You die without insulin,you won't die without suboxone.
R&B and SAMHSA are good sites for accurate info.
The site mentions that pharmacological therapy alone rarely achieves long term success and should be combined w/ concurrent behavioral therapies.It said this point is so important that the physician must attest to his/her capacity to refer patients to submit to counseling and notify SAMHSA of this before they can start prescribing sub.
Just some things I wanted to share in fairness here.
I hope you can get some pro counseling.I did and believe it's as important as the medication.Part of the addictive mindset or way of thinking is to view things in black and white.Demon or angel,when life is really shades of grey..A good counselor was so helpful in helping me move beyond such thinking,letting go of resentments and playing the blame game..because frankly that's what I see in your posts.Best wishes on your recovery journey.
Hi Alice,
I know you asked Ralph the questions but as a former sub user I hope you don't mind if I add to the discussion?
Yes,I would get withdrawal symptoms if I didn't take sub .16 hours without and I'd start feeling the wd's.
It is most certainly a powerful narcotic.
Being an opiate it has shown up on the streets-diversion.And one can definitely be arrested for it.I knew some people who abused it.Shot it up etc. and many do get a high from it.Although I didn't.
Ativan and other benzos mixed with sub has caused deaths.It's a lethal combination.Someone I know takes xanax with their sub becuase she says to kicks in a high.It does potentiate the sub.
Coming off of it caused the worst depression of my life and I've been diagnosed as clinically depressed since age 13.So I'm familiar with depression and it's symptoms.
I give it credit for helping stop the insane junkie ratrace ,which gave me time to work on me-get counseling,meetings ,behavioral changes,changes in thinking/cognition which I still work on.The drugs were the symptom,I was the problem with my messed up thinking....I've also seen methadone help others in the same way.It provided the time without being obsessed by getting and staying 'straight' to make the necessary changes.
And speaking for myself here that meant vevtually choosing to face and live life on it's terms,not one affected by opiates..so that meant no lifetime maintenance.
Despite what anyone else may believe my personal belief is whether one feels no impairment,no 'cloudiness'...while on maintenance..I discovered it's still there and you don't realize it until you've been opiate free for a time.
So like i've stated it can be a great tool,aid but the point is to hopefully be able to put those crutches to the side and live a quality whole actualized life,free from them.
Boy!lol I went on there.Thanks for reading.
I know you asked Ralph the questions but as a former sub user I hope you don't mind if I add to the discussion?
Yes,I would get withdrawal symptoms if I didn't take sub .16 hours without and I'd start feeling the wd's.
It is most certainly a powerful narcotic.
Being an opiate it has shown up on the streets-diversion.And one can definitely be arrested for it.I knew some people who abused it.Shot it up etc. and many do get a high from it.Although I didn't.
Ativan and other benzos mixed with sub has caused deaths.It's a lethal combination.Someone I know takes xanax with their sub becuase she says to kicks in a high.It does potentiate the sub.
Coming off of it caused the worst depression of my life and I've been diagnosed as clinically depressed since age 13.So I'm familiar with depression and it's symptoms.
I give it credit for helping stop the insane junkie ratrace ,which gave me time to work on me-get counseling,meetings ,behavioral changes,changes in thinking/cognition which I still work on.The drugs were the symptom,I was the problem with my messed up thinking....I've also seen methadone help others in the same way.It provided the time without being obsessed by getting and staying 'straight' to make the necessary changes.
And speaking for myself here that meant vevtually choosing to face and live life on it's terms,not one affected by opiates..so that meant no lifetime maintenance.
Despite what anyone else may believe my personal belief is whether one feels no impairment,no 'cloudiness'...while on maintenance..I discovered it's still there and you don't realize it until you've been opiate free for a time.
So like i've stated it can be a great tool,aid but the point is to hopefully be able to put those crutches to the side and live a quality whole actualized life,free from them.
Boy!lol I went on there.Thanks for reading.
Ralph, you said....
Like I said...Soboxone is not a miracle pill...but without all the adverse affects from withdrawals,it allowed me to work on myself and get on that spiritual path much sooner than I would of been able to...
I think that is very cool...something I have been trying to achieve for a very long time.
Sub will forever be a conterversary on this board. The longer I'm clean, the more I think..whatever works. As long as you are happy, healthy and productive, who cares? But being happy and healthy are the key words here. If it doesn't work anymore...it's time to try something else. It's a life long endeavor that's for sure.
I have to agree with Tim on one point though..you do not seem that happy or serene. Rather defensive and argumentive. Relax buddy. You don't have to justify anything to anyone except yourself and your HP. Be happy for those of us that have found a different path. Be ok with that.
Like I said...Soboxone is not a miracle pill...but without all the adverse affects from withdrawals,it allowed me to work on myself and get on that spiritual path much sooner than I would of been able to...
I think that is very cool...something I have been trying to achieve for a very long time.
Sub will forever be a conterversary on this board. The longer I'm clean, the more I think..whatever works. As long as you are happy, healthy and productive, who cares? But being happy and healthy are the key words here. If it doesn't work anymore...it's time to try something else. It's a life long endeavor that's for sure.
I have to agree with Tim on one point though..you do not seem that happy or serene. Rather defensive and argumentive. Relax buddy. You don't have to justify anything to anyone except yourself and your HP. Be happy for those of us that have found a different path. Be ok with that.
Hi Ralphy,
I waited until now to view this thread because my daughter is on Suboxone and I wanted to see what others had to say, though I've been reading posts about it for ages.
First, I did not detect any hostility or anger, just a story told that maybe struck a nerve with some and clearly struck a nerve with you. Sometimes when we don't care for the message we infer a tone or an undertone that is not there, plus this is the internet, not F2F, so there's bound to be interpretation of sorts going on...here's mine...
So you're not a fan of AA/NA...big deal...I didn't detect any bashing...just your experience which wasn't so positive. I didn't hear you say others shouldn't go that route, only that you had found another way that works for you when AA did not. Many's the time we've heard someone on the boards say they were considered 'not clean' because of ADs or Subs...who's making the rules? Not Bill W, I'd wager. My daughter has shared with only a very few close AAers that she is on Suboxone and never mentions it in meetings because she knows what the reactions might be. How sad that she goes to a place where they require 'rigorous honesty' and then decry her use of medication and so that she ends up being honest only up to a point. Not to say that my girl is rigorously honest in all things at the moment, she's had some self-inflicted lapses of truthfulness lately, but should she opt for honesty it is not available to her in the meeting format unless she wants HER recovery to become the fodder for group debate about what is and is not recovery.
Anyway, use of a tool and abuse are two different things. Some people should not be substance free because they have chemical imbalances that would wreak havoc on their brains without the ameliorating effects of medication.
I am very happy for you that this has been what apparently saved you from repeated relapse and active addiction. I think Astrella has offered appropriate cautions, but if you are under a doctor's care and doing what you've been instructed to do by your medical professional, then you and s/he will make carefully considered and timely decisions that are in YOUR best interests. You are working a program of your own creation and you are happy...good for you.
Thanks for sharing your experience in a considered and eloquent post.
Peace~MomNMore
PS Alice, I think you have asked some very interestin questions and I'll bet lots of folks would like the answers. I do know some ofthe answers, but do not consider myself any sort of expert on the subject, so you'll have to wait until someone else comes forward. Maybe I'll look for some of SilentPartner's old posts about it.
I waited until now to view this thread because my daughter is on Suboxone and I wanted to see what others had to say, though I've been reading posts about it for ages.
First, I did not detect any hostility or anger, just a story told that maybe struck a nerve with some and clearly struck a nerve with you. Sometimes when we don't care for the message we infer a tone or an undertone that is not there, plus this is the internet, not F2F, so there's bound to be interpretation of sorts going on...here's mine...
So you're not a fan of AA/NA...big deal...I didn't detect any bashing...just your experience which wasn't so positive. I didn't hear you say others shouldn't go that route, only that you had found another way that works for you when AA did not. Many's the time we've heard someone on the boards say they were considered 'not clean' because of ADs or Subs...who's making the rules? Not Bill W, I'd wager. My daughter has shared with only a very few close AAers that she is on Suboxone and never mentions it in meetings because she knows what the reactions might be. How sad that she goes to a place where they require 'rigorous honesty' and then decry her use of medication and so that she ends up being honest only up to a point. Not to say that my girl is rigorously honest in all things at the moment, she's had some self-inflicted lapses of truthfulness lately, but should she opt for honesty it is not available to her in the meeting format unless she wants HER recovery to become the fodder for group debate about what is and is not recovery.
Anyway, use of a tool and abuse are two different things. Some people should not be substance free because they have chemical imbalances that would wreak havoc on their brains without the ameliorating effects of medication.
I am very happy for you that this has been what apparently saved you from repeated relapse and active addiction. I think Astrella has offered appropriate cautions, but if you are under a doctor's care and doing what you've been instructed to do by your medical professional, then you and s/he will make carefully considered and timely decisions that are in YOUR best interests. You are working a program of your own creation and you are happy...good for you.
Thanks for sharing your experience in a considered and eloquent post.
Peace~MomNMore
PS Alice, I think you have asked some very interestin questions and I'll bet lots of folks would like the answers. I do know some ofthe answers, but do not consider myself any sort of expert on the subject, so you'll have to wait until someone else comes forward. Maybe I'll look for some of SilentPartner's old posts about it.
WOW....thank you so much Momnmore...at least one person understands.Your so right...I hit a nerve and now i'm suppose to defend my own recovery? I don't see where I was bashing the 12 step program...I didn't care for some of the people...but twice I said the principles were good.
Yes my heading was " I love Suboxone " What's wrong with this heading? I'm happy about it so I put it into words.So I guess were not suppose to share any bad experiences we have had at a 12 step meeting...Even though i'm sure we all have shared a few bad experiences.
I realize because I have hit a nerve some want to attack me in a personal way.I think it's sad...I never questioned anyones personal beliefs or method of recovery...and because of the stigma that Suboxone has gotten,I wanted to share my own personal experience with this medication.
Momnmore i'm glad you brought up this fact,because no matter how I try and write out my message,it's going to be taken in the wrong context by those it hit a nerve with...I'm amazed at some of the things written about my character,yet I never singled out anyone and questioned theirs.I did say if some here call what they have as recovery,that I didn't want it.I suppose I could of went into specifics and named names,but that wouldn't of been very christian like either.
Yes...I too have heard the horror stories about Suboxone...but it was never my own experience...and not wanting to hear both sides of the issue on this subject seems immature.That's why there is so much controversy over this medication.How long did it take to educate the medical field that addiction was more than being immoral.How many people do you know personally that still think this way? Why? because they are bound and determined to stand their ground no matter how much evidence is to the contrary.
I'm going to stop now...I got my message across.I hope others won't be afraid to speak up about how well their method of recovery has been working for them...I love that we live in a society where we have choices...because were not all the same,and what works for one may not for another.And you know what? I love the 12 steps! I think everyone would benefit by following them...but it doesn't mean I have to belong to any certain group to incorporate them into my own life.And I don't see the need in trying to convince anyone that i'm enjoying my recovery,that would just be foolish.
I'm going to check in tomorrow and see if anyone else would like to share how Suboxone has worked..or working...for them...or even another method besides the mainsteam...and then I will leave you all alone again...It was not my intention to be malicious in any way...maybe somewhat bold...but never malicious.
Thank You
Ralphy
Yes my heading was " I love Suboxone " What's wrong with this heading? I'm happy about it so I put it into words.So I guess were not suppose to share any bad experiences we have had at a 12 step meeting...Even though i'm sure we all have shared a few bad experiences.
I realize because I have hit a nerve some want to attack me in a personal way.I think it's sad...I never questioned anyones personal beliefs or method of recovery...and because of the stigma that Suboxone has gotten,I wanted to share my own personal experience with this medication.
Momnmore i'm glad you brought up this fact,because no matter how I try and write out my message,it's going to be taken in the wrong context by those it hit a nerve with...I'm amazed at some of the things written about my character,yet I never singled out anyone and questioned theirs.I did say if some here call what they have as recovery,that I didn't want it.I suppose I could of went into specifics and named names,but that wouldn't of been very christian like either.
Yes...I too have heard the horror stories about Suboxone...but it was never my own experience...and not wanting to hear both sides of the issue on this subject seems immature.That's why there is so much controversy over this medication.How long did it take to educate the medical field that addiction was more than being immoral.How many people do you know personally that still think this way? Why? because they are bound and determined to stand their ground no matter how much evidence is to the contrary.
I'm going to stop now...I got my message across.I hope others won't be afraid to speak up about how well their method of recovery has been working for them...I love that we live in a society where we have choices...because were not all the same,and what works for one may not for another.And you know what? I love the 12 steps! I think everyone would benefit by following them...but it doesn't mean I have to belong to any certain group to incorporate them into my own life.And I don't see the need in trying to convince anyone that i'm enjoying my recovery,that would just be foolish.
I'm going to check in tomorrow and see if anyone else would like to share how Suboxone has worked..or working...for them...or even another method besides the mainsteam...and then I will leave you all alone again...It was not my intention to be malicious in any way...maybe somewhat bold...but never malicious.
Thank You
Ralphy
In the past, a few people have recommended that maybe I should consider taking sub. I never gave it much thought because I always said it just wasn't for me. In the last couple of weeks, I've seriously thought about checking into it. I don't have insurance but I can't imagine it costing anymore than I'm forking over for drugs now. I'm still really undecided though. It's not that I can't handle the withdrawals. Of course I still dread them every single time. It's the fact that I wonder if I will ever make it past a couple of days without a short term crutch, if that's what people want to call it. I need to stay clean long enough to start seeing a change and I haven't been successful at that yet.
It does seem as if it's becoming more common and more widely accepted recently.
It does seem as if it's becoming more common and more widely accepted recently.
Jodi, my daughter takes 8mg a day, though she's prescribed 16mg. A 30 day script for 16mg would cost her $400 without insurnce, with bad insurance it costs her $100.
I find sub a good tool, and while it makes total sense that my husband is on it, I would love to kill the doctor who put my son on it.It is just how I view it all, and I see it as a last house on the street, not a ooh here lets up the ante shall we
Good Luck Ralphie....
For Alice,
It is an opiate replacement therapysimilar to methadone, touted as a much better alternative with little on no potential for abuse ( which was disproved kinda fast)with a less severity in wd than methadone which seems to ring true.
It was suppose to be another last house on the streetIt was designed not to use everyday but rarely is that done here in he US
Everything is individualized, and a lot depends on dose. And my husband at above like 8 mgs could miss a dose and not even know.down low it really seems like this in wd, out of wd, in wd, our of wd, but then he looks to be torturing himself taking a piece that is no bigger than one of them little dots in a contact capsule.
And a lot with sub depends on habit before. And it is abusable, and many use it to get high, some can use on top. Benzos and alcohol are a no noand narcan may not work to bring one out of an od. Anyone using it should carry information that they are taking it, the dose, the doctors name and at one time people were keeping descriptions of the drug with them as well because no one knew what it was. It also can be overridden if one were to get hurt, and need immediate pain relief from what I understand.
Sub doesnt show on a drug test because it isnt looked for and it doesnt trip a false positive as far as I know for any other opiate. It can be tested for though and usually the doctors prescribing it do to make sure their patients are taking itas of now it isnt an addon to drug testing for jobs, like methadone.
There are laws in many countries when it comes to methadone and sub and driving, but they vary and you might have to get a waver depending on where you live.in the US for example you can not drive a truck, or have a cdl using methadone for any reason at all, but then you can have a script for percs and that is ok.makes no damn sense. Not sure what they have to say about subthis isnt a good topic for me because I want my doctors to have to adhere to the same rules as trucker drivers dobut then that is just me.
Sub has a ceiling effect, which I am to tired to explain.
And it reminds me of a germ in the dynamics
Good Luck Ralphie....
For Alice,
It is an opiate replacement therapysimilar to methadone, touted as a much better alternative with little on no potential for abuse ( which was disproved kinda fast)with a less severity in wd than methadone which seems to ring true.
It was suppose to be another last house on the streetIt was designed not to use everyday but rarely is that done here in he US
Everything is individualized, and a lot depends on dose. And my husband at above like 8 mgs could miss a dose and not even know.down low it really seems like this in wd, out of wd, in wd, our of wd, but then he looks to be torturing himself taking a piece that is no bigger than one of them little dots in a contact capsule.
And a lot with sub depends on habit before. And it is abusable, and many use it to get high, some can use on top. Benzos and alcohol are a no noand narcan may not work to bring one out of an od. Anyone using it should carry information that they are taking it, the dose, the doctors name and at one time people were keeping descriptions of the drug with them as well because no one knew what it was. It also can be overridden if one were to get hurt, and need immediate pain relief from what I understand.
Sub doesnt show on a drug test because it isnt looked for and it doesnt trip a false positive as far as I know for any other opiate. It can be tested for though and usually the doctors prescribing it do to make sure their patients are taking itas of now it isnt an addon to drug testing for jobs, like methadone.
There are laws in many countries when it comes to methadone and sub and driving, but they vary and you might have to get a waver depending on where you live.in the US for example you can not drive a truck, or have a cdl using methadone for any reason at all, but then you can have a script for percs and that is ok.makes no damn sense. Not sure what they have to say about subthis isnt a good topic for me because I want my doctors to have to adhere to the same rules as trucker drivers dobut then that is just me.
Sub has a ceiling effect, which I am to tired to explain.
And it reminds me of a germ in the dynamics
I'm sorry if it seemed I was attacking you personally Ralph. I just offered an opinion of what I read. Again though, be ok with what others have chosen because I am certainly ok with yours and again, you don't have to justify it to anyone. I wish you nothing but the best of luck.
Lisa, I don't think you said anything untoward...I'm guessing it wasn't you anyway...I didn't notice anything unsupportive in your posts.
Peace~M&M
Peace~M&M
Hi Ralphie - To me you did seem a bit perturbed with the fact that you couldn't share at NA meetings. I would have been too. You did say that the 12 steps were a good way to live your life. My husband agrees that everyone could benefit from working the steps.
You also said something to the effect of other's sobriety leaving them miserable and no thanks you didn't want that. That's where I thought you were sending some digs or having some resentments. Like I said in another of my posts, I am newly clean (8 months) after many years of opiate abuse. The first three months were very hard but after that I really started to improve. This is a place where I feel safe to share if I've had a bad day or if I'm having difficulty coping. I don't want to be called on for not always being a happy camper. There are also alot of people who are not clean that come on here too. That's okay too. That's what this board is for.
Everybody gets to put in their two cents. So stick around and get to know us. Don't make judgement because someone thinks your post came off a little angry. You've stated that you didn't mean to come off that way and you sound like a good guy. Forget about it. This board would be really boring if we didn't have an ocasional difference of opinion. I'm really glad that you are not in the misery of active addiction. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
You also said something to the effect of other's sobriety leaving them miserable and no thanks you didn't want that. That's where I thought you were sending some digs or having some resentments. Like I said in another of my posts, I am newly clean (8 months) after many years of opiate abuse. The first three months were very hard but after that I really started to improve. This is a place where I feel safe to share if I've had a bad day or if I'm having difficulty coping. I don't want to be called on for not always being a happy camper. There are also alot of people who are not clean that come on here too. That's okay too. That's what this board is for.
Everybody gets to put in their two cents. So stick around and get to know us. Don't make judgement because someone thinks your post came off a little angry. You've stated that you didn't mean to come off that way and you sound like a good guy. Forget about it. This board would be really boring if we didn't have an ocasional difference of opinion. I'm really glad that you are not in the misery of active addiction. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
Hey Ralphy!! Im Bemartha, nice to meet you.
What a great thread this is! Alot of information in your posts Ralphy.
I am currently taking Sub also. I dont post much about it on here because its argumentive. And I dont want to be told Im taking too much or how long will I be on it. blah blah blah. I havent had any thoughts of relapsing. I dont get up in the morning and start thinking where and how will I get my 30 pills for the day, then after I got the 30 I had to look for another 30. AHHHHHHHHHH..Not no more. I get my day started before I even think about my meds. No I dont get any kind of buzz from them. I have never thought about mixing anything with Sub. I follow the docs orders thats why Im doing so good with them. I dont think about Sub all day long, its my daily med for right now. Thats it. To tell you the truth, I felt worse if I missed a dose of my anti-depressant back in the day verses missing a dose of my Sub. I felt MORE chained to my anti-depressant than I do the Sub. Seriously.
The Sub is very costly here. My mothly visit is $90 and I pay $7 bucks a pill. I am thankful that my pharmacy works with me and I can get 5 refills thru out the month. So if I can only afford 10 at that point than they will let me get lilttle by little the rest of the month. I have no insurance. Yea its expensive but well worth it!! Its what works for this addict.
Ralphy keep posting please. I really like reading your posts. If you like, you can probably find my email addy on here and shoot me an email. Please stay!!
What a great thread this is! Alot of information in your posts Ralphy.
I am currently taking Sub also. I dont post much about it on here because its argumentive. And I dont want to be told Im taking too much or how long will I be on it. blah blah blah. I havent had any thoughts of relapsing. I dont get up in the morning and start thinking where and how will I get my 30 pills for the day, then after I got the 30 I had to look for another 30. AHHHHHHHHHH..Not no more. I get my day started before I even think about my meds. No I dont get any kind of buzz from them. I have never thought about mixing anything with Sub. I follow the docs orders thats why Im doing so good with them. I dont think about Sub all day long, its my daily med for right now. Thats it. To tell you the truth, I felt worse if I missed a dose of my anti-depressant back in the day verses missing a dose of my Sub. I felt MORE chained to my anti-depressant than I do the Sub. Seriously.
The Sub is very costly here. My mothly visit is $90 and I pay $7 bucks a pill. I am thankful that my pharmacy works with me and I can get 5 refills thru out the month. So if I can only afford 10 at that point than they will let me get lilttle by little the rest of the month. I have no insurance. Yea its expensive but well worth it!! Its what works for this addict.
Ralphy keep posting please. I really like reading your posts. If you like, you can probably find my email addy on here and shoot me an email. Please stay!!
Does one's tolerance level increase over time when using sub daily?
None my experience with subutex, the answer is no. I took as RX'ed, never had a desire to take more, never even took the bottle with me when I left the house unless it was on vacation, unlike pp.
I was on it for one year.
I was on it for one year.
Not with me either. I have been on 4 mg. - 6 mg. for 2 years. I could take all I want, my dr. used to offer regularly to up my dose, but I found that any more than that I do start to feel a little funny. At 4-6 mg. I just feel "normal" and have honestly never even attempted to abuse it.
It;s a very strange drug. Before, I would have abused any opiate, but with this, there's just not any desire to do so. Enough is enough.
