Hey Idgie, how you doing?
In response to your question - it isn't about me.
Anyone can say anything and, if you believe in a HP and that everyone HAS one, then anyone who reads it has a HP who will decide what "their" person should take away....sometimes we take away stuff that leads us to continue to do foolish things....in which case, those of us looking on have to believe EITHER that their HP isn't in control of their life, or that it isn't time for them to stop doing foolish things yet....now, if you have a 12 step programme...if you're working a 12 step programme.....then surely you HAVE to believe that their HP has decided that they need to suffer some more - for whatever reason - and so stand back and ALLOW them to do so? No? How can you stop them? Should you try to persuade them beyond a reasonable point? Should I really try to impose MY WILL on them, having supposedly handed over my OWN Will and Life...isn't it just another manifestation of my illness if I try to usurp THEIR HP?
Anyone can say "this worked for me".....you can say, with certainty "someone told me this worked for THEM"......you can say with NO certainty at all "this worked for a lot of people" - unless you're God and KNOW what did it for them........and no-one APART from God can say "this will work for you"....because that's another person AND you're promising a future NOT in your control.... YOU JUST DON'T KNOW and I want to be humble enough to accept that....it's part of MY recovery....
I take your point about people coming through the doors and not being ready, but I was addressing people who were sober....my point/belief is that possibly only BY DEFINITION - you HAVE to have accepted that you're powerless BEFORE you get sober....something brought those sober people I was addressing to AA....was it their "stinking thinking", or their HP? I don't know, but I've heard enough people share that it WASN'T them.....indeed someone posted that the other night....so their HP was acting in their life BEFORE they started the 12 steps...and you know, if you truly believe in a HP that has power over alcohol and can restore you to sanity, how could it ever really be otherwise?
My own personal belief - and obviously that's all it can ever be for ANYONE, however many people SHARE the same belief - is that we have to get to a point where we genuinely give up the delusion that our consciousness runs our lives.....and we let other parts of us do what they're meant to do....for some that includes a spiritual dimension, for others it doesn't have to.
As for AA and the 12 steps I nearly responded last night but wanted to avoid reheating the conversation.....I could answer your question, but my HP is telling me to ask you, and anyone else who might be reading this a question of my own instead, because if you REALLY think about it, it's far more relevant to recovery and I think there's learning in it for me. Others have their own HP and he/she/it will decide what they take from it:
Who has the right and the power to decide when I'm qualified to speak my truth?
uh Martin - not sure what brought all that on. I'm not challenging your right to post what you want when you want.
I just asked a simple question cause you've mentioned going to AA meetings but never Al-Anon so I just wanted to clarify that - it helps me to understand where people are coming from.
but you are entitled to your privacy and if you don't wish to share that its no skin off my teeth.
Since this seems to be a sensitive subject for you - I think I'll just leave it alone.
cheers
Idige
I just asked a simple question cause you've mentioned going to AA meetings but never Al-Anon so I just wanted to clarify that - it helps me to understand where people are coming from.
but you are entitled to your privacy and if you don't wish to share that its no skin off my teeth.
Since this seems to be a sensitive subject for you - I think I'll just leave it alone.
cheers
Idige
hehehe...oops...sorry Idgie, context is everything.....I'm not upset or sensitive about any of it, I just read your post in the context of the conversation last night and assumed you were continuing with the questions and themes in it. No worries.
I've been going to Al-anon for a year and to open AA meetings for a little under that. Part of God's gift to me...I went to AA to try to understand what my then-partner was going through and spent months going "that's her, that's her"...and gradually realised "that's me, that's me".....I described myself elsewhere as the luckiest alcoholic in the World....I sat for months in the rooms and it gradually soaked into me that I ha...(my fingers lingered for ages over the choice between "had" and "have"....) a potential problem with alcohol......I genuinely believe my HP has kept me safe by giving me 18 years with my wonderful ex-wife before letting me have my way and introducing me to my alcoholic ex-partner so that I could do the research into alcohol that was necessary to enable me to find my true Self....
So I wasn't being secretive, I've posted elsewhere about my experience. In fact I probably share too much. I've spent a lifetime bottling things up and sharing my feelings has possibly saved my life this year and probably saved my sanity, such as it is.
The point of my question in that post is that it opens an interesting door. Who decides I'm qualified? Who decides I'm an alcoholic? Do I have to declare that here? I don't have to in AA, do I......and if - IF - I have to be in AA to have an opinion about step 4, do I have to have "done" step 4 to talk about it? Do I have to have "done" it "properly"? A certain way? With a good enough sponsor? By a certain time? Who decides all that? Is there a committee that investigates whether recovering alcoholics are performing to specification? lol....starts to sound a bit like a cult to me in that case....and it's simply not my experience, which is only of open meetings and of listening to someone who's been sober for over 30 years.
Of course, my other experiences MIGHT be useful to those who have an open mind enough to consider the possibility that someone ELSE and/or their HP MIGHT be able to distinguish the good stuff from the dross....
I think it depends on what you really BELIEVE in....and I'm happy for everyone in the world to have an opinion different to mine....that's an amazing part of my recovery lol
Love and peace Idgie, I really wasn't upset, we just posted/read in different contexts which, given my post on WONDER elsewhere today, is really, really funny.
I've been going to Al-anon for a year and to open AA meetings for a little under that. Part of God's gift to me...I went to AA to try to understand what my then-partner was going through and spent months going "that's her, that's her"...and gradually realised "that's me, that's me".....I described myself elsewhere as the luckiest alcoholic in the World....I sat for months in the rooms and it gradually soaked into me that I ha...(my fingers lingered for ages over the choice between "had" and "have"....) a potential problem with alcohol......I genuinely believe my HP has kept me safe by giving me 18 years with my wonderful ex-wife before letting me have my way and introducing me to my alcoholic ex-partner so that I could do the research into alcohol that was necessary to enable me to find my true Self....
So I wasn't being secretive, I've posted elsewhere about my experience. In fact I probably share too much. I've spent a lifetime bottling things up and sharing my feelings has possibly saved my life this year and probably saved my sanity, such as it is.
The point of my question in that post is that it opens an interesting door. Who decides I'm qualified? Who decides I'm an alcoholic? Do I have to declare that here? I don't have to in AA, do I......and if - IF - I have to be in AA to have an opinion about step 4, do I have to have "done" step 4 to talk about it? Do I have to have "done" it "properly"? A certain way? With a good enough sponsor? By a certain time? Who decides all that? Is there a committee that investigates whether recovering alcoholics are performing to specification? lol....starts to sound a bit like a cult to me in that case....and it's simply not my experience, which is only of open meetings and of listening to someone who's been sober for over 30 years.
Of course, my other experiences MIGHT be useful to those who have an open mind enough to consider the possibility that someone ELSE and/or their HP MIGHT be able to distinguish the good stuff from the dross....
I think it depends on what you really BELIEVE in....and I'm happy for everyone in the world to have an opinion different to mine....that's an amazing part of my recovery lol
Love and peace Idgie, I really wasn't upset, we just posted/read in different contexts which, given my post on WONDER elsewhere today, is really, really funny.
And Idgie, I think your point about experience of Al-anon is very, very relevant here because as you probably know, what the families and partners have to battle is the urge to fix someone else's problem FOR them....which I guess is what I felt I was nudging up against in the other thread. And it was THEN that I realised that, as I said, I was - once again, and again with the best of intentions - "overinvolved" with someone else's recovery.
I posted this a few days ago to someone who felt I wrote as if I though an addict "had a God-given right" to use. It might be relevant to ANYONE'S God-given right to make whatever bloody choice they want without people (us well-intentioned people) nagging them to stop drinking/clean up/do this/do that yada yada yada......we learn in AL-anon that such behaviour only DELAYS an alcoholic's recovery...maybe Al-anon has that wrong of course, ...it's not God.
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I cannot judge this woman, my friend. I doubt I'd still be living if I'd had to bear what she has borne. I am in awe of her strength that she still stands and does her best to love our kids. Who am I to say that drinking herself to death isn't better than feeling the pain she feels? Who am I to try to tell her to feel that pain? We all die somehow, sometime. It's up to us whether we decide to stay to watch. If we do, perhaps we should just shut the f*** up and love them. If I'd known when I was walking out what I know now I might have found the strength and courage to do just that. I hope so.
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So I guess my truth is today that if someone doesn't feel ready who I am to tell them what to do?
I might be wrong. God only knows.
That's it for me, you see, only God knows.....so everyone shares, no human being gets to decide what's right for another human being and He makes it unfold as it should......imho
Oh, just edited to add that if your HP has led you to place your Will and your life in the hands of a sponsor, then that's a special and different set of circumstances to this situation.....THEN it would only be sensible to follow instructions unless and until your HP tells you to fire his/her sorry a**!
Only God is God.
I posted this a few days ago to someone who felt I wrote as if I though an addict "had a God-given right" to use. It might be relevant to ANYONE'S God-given right to make whatever bloody choice they want without people (us well-intentioned people) nagging them to stop drinking/clean up/do this/do that yada yada yada......we learn in AL-anon that such behaviour only DELAYS an alcoholic's recovery...maybe Al-anon has that wrong of course, ...it's not God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I cannot judge this woman, my friend. I doubt I'd still be living if I'd had to bear what she has borne. I am in awe of her strength that she still stands and does her best to love our kids. Who am I to say that drinking herself to death isn't better than feeling the pain she feels? Who am I to try to tell her to feel that pain? We all die somehow, sometime. It's up to us whether we decide to stay to watch. If we do, perhaps we should just shut the f*** up and love them. If I'd known when I was walking out what I know now I might have found the strength and courage to do just that. I hope so.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I guess my truth is today that if someone doesn't feel ready who I am to tell them what to do?
I might be wrong. God only knows.
That's it for me, you see, only God knows.....so everyone shares, no human being gets to decide what's right for another human being and He makes it unfold as it should......imho
Oh, just edited to add that if your HP has led you to place your Will and your life in the hands of a sponsor, then that's a special and different set of circumstances to this situation.....THEN it would only be sensible to follow instructions unless and until your HP tells you to fire his/her sorry a**!
Only God is God.
