Hello
I suffer from intellectual lonliness. I have been in so many treatment centers, recovery houses, read so many books, I find I am isolated from the mainstay of unity. No matter what I do, I end-up all alone. I have read so much on codependency, that I have another defencive wall. The fear of intamncy is strong. I was an air force brat. I learned at an early age, not to trust anything like permanence. Everything was transient. Why would I trust anything on a deep level, believing it wouldn't last. By the time I was seven, my male role models were my brothers. I was fear based toward my father, for good reason. One night in '62, a gun shot sounded across the hall, in the house we lived in, (Great Falls Montana). When I went to see, I saw my eldest brother with a gun shot above his heart. That was the last I ever saw of my brother. I remeber the pain was so deep, I told myself I wouldn't ever let anyone get that close again. It worked. I not only built the wall, I trapped myself in. Drugs came into my life in the later sixties. We had moved back to Montreal, were I spent my adolesence. In '73, I came to British Columbia, where I've been ever since. Believing I would find love and acceptance, I used for over 35 years, until the bitter end. I had a twenty year job with B.C. rail as an Engineer, only to lose it to my addictive behaviors. I had gone to treatment centers, and had stayed clean for periods of time. All the time lonely, even in relationships. Losing the job in '99, I used denial big time, tried a couple more treatment centers, only to relapse shortly after leaving them. I did the geographical, and moved to Victoria, B.C. I was loaded when I came. I hit another bottom, and began to clean-up with using the local N.A. I have been clean for over two years. I also went to CODA, (codependents anonymous). I met a beautiful lady at CODA, and we had a brief relationship. (Yea I know. Keep your 13 step comments to your self please). We had intellectualized into what we felt like love, via e-mails, and personal contact. She was the only one I ever let get close. A beautiful lady. Yet, the issues, on both sides, tore us apart. This was over a year ago. Since then I have been single. Not by choice, by fear. Fear of intimancy. I have used intellectualizing, and have attempted to process it with journeling and step work. Its so hard for me to submit to anyone. I see codependancy behaviors in just about anyone, while being in denial of mine. I have acted out on it on this message board. Same result, little responses. I don't believe getting into another relationship to get over the last one, is the answer. Attempting to support anyone get off of drugs, while ignoring the obvious codepedancy, isn't being honest. Blame the drugs, blame the boy friends, but don't mention one's own codependancy behaviors. Can't do that. What do you think fuels the drug addiction? All of this brings me to a very lonely existance. I have seen individuals in meetings, who arre illiterate. One lady was deaf, with an interpreter. When they share, they are right in thier emotions. Who has the disability? Intellectual lonliness. Its killing me. I won't use drugs, because of my Spiritual beliefs. I run the "tape". I won't get into a relationship, because I run the tape. I have no one in my life, yet I am surrounded by hundreds. I know about praying. I have a hard time to do that. My self worth and esteem are very low.
Anyways, I needed to vent. Not on any one. I feel abit better. Its frightening to become disallusioned with recovery. I won't use. Yet, relationships in denial, seem more appealing then lonliness in recovery. By writing this, I will try to reach out to someone. I am going for a walk. Nature never lies. Anyone else intellectually lonely out there?
it is great that you are so aware of the codependancy issue and how it relates to drug use. I beleive that people know what is wrong when they use and when they are clean. some times we can't handle having it slapped in our face. We do't need the things we know slapped in our faces all the time. When we are ready or at the end of the line and need someone to smack some sense into us. For example when I was raped they told me I souldn't have gotten off the bus with him. Well I didn't know what he was going to do. He was a friend, co-worker and he wanted to sit and talk while we waited for the bus. But to have someone tell me that I should have known better not to sit and talk with him, well in all honesty I turned around took a couple of swings and went off on a binge. I knew they were right. I knew I really didn't want to go and chat with him, and to have someone say it out loud was just to much, because it made it all the more real that I f***ed up and I was partly responsible. At the same time the things I know about myself, that people call me on don't make me upset it helps to recentre myself.
There are only three people who matter in the world ME MYSELF AND I.
Please everyone take care of them. Only you know what you need.
Hope to hear more from you Dave.
BabyCakes
troubled_cow@yahoo.ca
There are only three people who matter in the world ME MYSELF AND I.
Please everyone take care of them. Only you know what you need.
Hope to hear more from you Dave.
BabyCakes
troubled_cow@yahoo.ca
Hello Baby Cakes
Thanks for your response. My initial feelings about your posting were of happiness that someone was responding, then compassion as you shared your story, then anger as I read of your boundaries being violated. In no way are you responsible for being a victum of rape. My anger takes off to rage. I remember my "tools". Anger is a secondary emotion. I settle myself, and feel what I want to write. Many thoughts flash by. I am settled. What am I feeling? Compassion. Empathy. Humility. Powerless.
I could write much on codependancy. yet my heart leads me to addressing your post. Boundaries, (using CODA literature, not per batum for copy-write reasons), are physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. All boundary violations, are spiritual violations. Unsolicitated feed-back, is a boundary violation. My experiance of ones wanting to "call a person on their s***", is a boundary violation. The trick with validating my boudaries, is to do it without crossing another's boundary. I attempt to be aware of this, when writing my postings. If I take a posture of calling someone on their s***, I am taking the position of being right. Shame can a very toxic emotion. Shame is also a very healthy emotion. Healthy shame defines one's boundaries. How else would one know that they want to get clean? Toxic shame fuels codependancy, which fuels addictions. The first behavior beyond shame, is blame. Addicts and alcoholics carry alot of toxic shame. Ones who feel they can give unsolicitated feed-back, are generally attempting to have some one else carry thier own shame. The only healthy way to give feed-back, is to take possession. This is where "I" statements are so relevent. My experiance has been to notice that most people use "I" statements when they are taking about thier assets. When they take about their defects, the "you" statements come out. This behavior is right across the board. Watch for it, and I believe you will see what I mean. When I started practicing this, I went from the victum role to the volunteer role. I took possession, then I had a chance to heal. It is a powerful tool. (In no way am I insinuating you were a volunteer in your posting).
I am enraged towards your physical/sexual violation. I am also angry towards the ones around you attempting to place blame towards you. This is their shame that they are attempting to have you carry. Bondary violations all over the place. Baby Cakes, you don't have to carry it! You have been a victum, twice. From my perspective, this would be a major source of lonliness.
It doesn't mean that those around you don't love you. It reveals that those around you may have never learnt healthy boundaries, in their own journey. By your writings, from my perspective, you used drugs to numb these feelings. Without having healthy support, why wouldn't you? I used drug to numb my pain. The trouble with drugs and alcohol, (alcohol is a drug, period), is that they don't work after awhile. I would never encourage the use of drugs now. At the same time, I validate that I did what I knew how to survive, when I didn't know any better. Sure I am dealing with the wreakage of the past. No doubt drugs create their own problems. I can't change the past. I accept it. I don't hate the addict in me. I have learnt to love the addict. My addict was active long before I used drugs. My addict protected me before, during, and after I used drugs. Now its time to let go of my addict, and heal. Letting go of the addict, is grieving the addict.It was my only sense of intimancy. The only way I know how to do this, is support. Yes, this is a lonely process. as I have posted, it can be very lonely, yet, I do have a choice. Writing this reply, is part of it. You are helping me.
Well, I have gone on. Its three in the morining, here. Most of the postings are three hours behind. I am curious as to where everyone writes from. Yet, I know, healthy boundaries. Suggested reading, John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds you, and Melody Bettie's Codependancy No More. Any second hand book store has them, cheap.
I will keep in touch.
God Bless
Dave P.
Thanks for your response. My initial feelings about your posting were of happiness that someone was responding, then compassion as you shared your story, then anger as I read of your boundaries being violated. In no way are you responsible for being a victum of rape. My anger takes off to rage. I remember my "tools". Anger is a secondary emotion. I settle myself, and feel what I want to write. Many thoughts flash by. I am settled. What am I feeling? Compassion. Empathy. Humility. Powerless.
I could write much on codependancy. yet my heart leads me to addressing your post. Boundaries, (using CODA literature, not per batum for copy-write reasons), are physical, intellectual, emotional, and spiritual. All boundary violations, are spiritual violations. Unsolicitated feed-back, is a boundary violation. My experiance of ones wanting to "call a person on their s***", is a boundary violation. The trick with validating my boudaries, is to do it without crossing another's boundary. I attempt to be aware of this, when writing my postings. If I take a posture of calling someone on their s***, I am taking the position of being right. Shame can a very toxic emotion. Shame is also a very healthy emotion. Healthy shame defines one's boundaries. How else would one know that they want to get clean? Toxic shame fuels codependancy, which fuels addictions. The first behavior beyond shame, is blame. Addicts and alcoholics carry alot of toxic shame. Ones who feel they can give unsolicitated feed-back, are generally attempting to have some one else carry thier own shame. The only healthy way to give feed-back, is to take possession. This is where "I" statements are so relevent. My experiance has been to notice that most people use "I" statements when they are taking about thier assets. When they take about their defects, the "you" statements come out. This behavior is right across the board. Watch for it, and I believe you will see what I mean. When I started practicing this, I went from the victum role to the volunteer role. I took possession, then I had a chance to heal. It is a powerful tool. (In no way am I insinuating you were a volunteer in your posting).
I am enraged towards your physical/sexual violation. I am also angry towards the ones around you attempting to place blame towards you. This is their shame that they are attempting to have you carry. Bondary violations all over the place. Baby Cakes, you don't have to carry it! You have been a victum, twice. From my perspective, this would be a major source of lonliness.
It doesn't mean that those around you don't love you. It reveals that those around you may have never learnt healthy boundaries, in their own journey. By your writings, from my perspective, you used drugs to numb these feelings. Without having healthy support, why wouldn't you? I used drug to numb my pain. The trouble with drugs and alcohol, (alcohol is a drug, period), is that they don't work after awhile. I would never encourage the use of drugs now. At the same time, I validate that I did what I knew how to survive, when I didn't know any better. Sure I am dealing with the wreakage of the past. No doubt drugs create their own problems. I can't change the past. I accept it. I don't hate the addict in me. I have learnt to love the addict. My addict was active long before I used drugs. My addict protected me before, during, and after I used drugs. Now its time to let go of my addict, and heal. Letting go of the addict, is grieving the addict.It was my only sense of intimancy. The only way I know how to do this, is support. Yes, this is a lonely process. as I have posted, it can be very lonely, yet, I do have a choice. Writing this reply, is part of it. You are helping me.
Well, I have gone on. Its three in the morining, here. Most of the postings are three hours behind. I am curious as to where everyone writes from. Yet, I know, healthy boundaries. Suggested reading, John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame that Binds you, and Melody Bettie's Codependancy No More. Any second hand book store has them, cheap.
I will keep in touch.
God Bless
Dave P.
Hey Dave
It is so nice to here from you again. I fight with myself constently with all the feelings that come with rape. It is so difficult when someone wants to get involved with you. It makes the physical side of everything so difficult, under most any sercomstance. After having everyone pin it on me it is so nice to have someone say I was a victum of something beyond my control. I learned that anger is not a feeling, it is a word that repressents four other feelings that include pain, powerlessness, fear, and the fourth I can't remember right now. It holds so much emotion.
I love what you have to say about boundies. It is so true what you say about boundries being as much spiritual as they are physical. By invaiding my boundry I was spiritually, I was and still am broken. I thinke very person has a right to share there thoughts and feelings. It is when they make assumptions and don't clear up the assumption when things go down the hill. So many people base what they know off of assuming they know, that all you end up with is false information that not only makes everyone look stupid but it also upsets and confusses everyone. With that said I say down with assumptions. You want to know something ask, and it is my choice a) to answer and b) how I let what you say effect me. I really appricate how kind you are in your posts, you think before you write. You are not taking the position of being right if you keep it to questions to make sure that the assumptions you are making are correct. Shame is a large part of what still holds me back. It didn't help me get clean at all, it is one of those things that tries to continuelessly pull me back down. It is a slap of ice water in the morning and a warm blanket at night, begging me to go back to all the drugs I did or maybe just one once. In the moment my addictions don't care, they just want something to feed on. How can I blame anyone for the choices I made and where they got me the only person I have to kick is me, and somedays it just hurts to much. I think it is a way to transfer what we can't deal with, and gives us somewhere to put it until we are ready to take it back. Now I am not saying this is true with everyone or that it is right, sometimes it is just the way it goes. I think codependance also goes back to your childhood and how you where raised. I never had anyone there for me, so know I hunt out people to do what I have never had. I am very familuar with the "I" statements and how to use them. They are the strongest wepon any person has.
I have been violated in more ways then one by some people who are suposed to look after you this is nothing to knew, it is just what baggage comes with it. Know I am going out with a great guy and after about 2 days I am freaking and I want to run. I feel like the lonelissest person in the world. I could be with someone I know who cares but it is still know one who understands what it is like to be me. All I want is for someone who understands to come rescue me, but I know only I can do that. There are so many things that contribute to my loneliness. I am 19 and on any given day I can feel like I have lived enough to be 50.
I know there are people around me who love me and care, they can't give me what I need. I used drugs in the hopes of getting away from the inner ghosts that haunt me, to avoid all the pain inside that I am never ready to deal with. I loved knowing that I could push to the edge of death or I could just have enough to numb it all out. Once they stopped working I fell hard inside, I still am falling somedays, and no one sees it, no one has ever seen it. I don't think I would be alive if it weren't for the drugs I did, I hold so much pain inside that I know it will eventually kill me or at least cause me to kill myself. I have lived through so much and I am tired. Somedays the pain is unbearable. One day the final straw will be pulled out of my supports that keep me here, and that will be it.
I'm afraid to let any part of me go because once I do I have nothing to replace it with. The loneliness is the worst part, it can cause an equal amount of pain as to what you all ready have to deal with. By choosing to respond I am reaching out.
Thankyou so much Dave
All the best untill next time.
BabyCakes
It is so nice to here from you again. I fight with myself constently with all the feelings that come with rape. It is so difficult when someone wants to get involved with you. It makes the physical side of everything so difficult, under most any sercomstance. After having everyone pin it on me it is so nice to have someone say I was a victum of something beyond my control. I learned that anger is not a feeling, it is a word that repressents four other feelings that include pain, powerlessness, fear, and the fourth I can't remember right now. It holds so much emotion.
I love what you have to say about boundies. It is so true what you say about boundries being as much spiritual as they are physical. By invaiding my boundry I was spiritually, I was and still am broken. I thinke very person has a right to share there thoughts and feelings. It is when they make assumptions and don't clear up the assumption when things go down the hill. So many people base what they know off of assuming they know, that all you end up with is false information that not only makes everyone look stupid but it also upsets and confusses everyone. With that said I say down with assumptions. You want to know something ask, and it is my choice a) to answer and b) how I let what you say effect me. I really appricate how kind you are in your posts, you think before you write. You are not taking the position of being right if you keep it to questions to make sure that the assumptions you are making are correct. Shame is a large part of what still holds me back. It didn't help me get clean at all, it is one of those things that tries to continuelessly pull me back down. It is a slap of ice water in the morning and a warm blanket at night, begging me to go back to all the drugs I did or maybe just one once. In the moment my addictions don't care, they just want something to feed on. How can I blame anyone for the choices I made and where they got me the only person I have to kick is me, and somedays it just hurts to much. I think it is a way to transfer what we can't deal with, and gives us somewhere to put it until we are ready to take it back. Now I am not saying this is true with everyone or that it is right, sometimes it is just the way it goes. I think codependance also goes back to your childhood and how you where raised. I never had anyone there for me, so know I hunt out people to do what I have never had. I am very familuar with the "I" statements and how to use them. They are the strongest wepon any person has.
I have been violated in more ways then one by some people who are suposed to look after you this is nothing to knew, it is just what baggage comes with it. Know I am going out with a great guy and after about 2 days I am freaking and I want to run. I feel like the lonelissest person in the world. I could be with someone I know who cares but it is still know one who understands what it is like to be me. All I want is for someone who understands to come rescue me, but I know only I can do that. There are so many things that contribute to my loneliness. I am 19 and on any given day I can feel like I have lived enough to be 50.
I know there are people around me who love me and care, they can't give me what I need. I used drugs in the hopes of getting away from the inner ghosts that haunt me, to avoid all the pain inside that I am never ready to deal with. I loved knowing that I could push to the edge of death or I could just have enough to numb it all out. Once they stopped working I fell hard inside, I still am falling somedays, and no one sees it, no one has ever seen it. I don't think I would be alive if it weren't for the drugs I did, I hold so much pain inside that I know it will eventually kill me or at least cause me to kill myself. I have lived through so much and I am tired. Somedays the pain is unbearable. One day the final straw will be pulled out of my supports that keep me here, and that will be it.
I'm afraid to let any part of me go because once I do I have nothing to replace it with. The loneliness is the worst part, it can cause an equal amount of pain as to what you all ready have to deal with. By choosing to respond I am reaching out.
Thankyou so much Dave
All the best untill next time.
BabyCakes
Dave and Babycakes -- Human nature is to suffer... human compassion is to nurture. Can't have one without the other. Dave if you are trying to analyize what that means than you are to busy thinking and not living. Baby You have come a long way and may have insight that will inspire Dave. I have learned alot by reading these postings that I feel you have enlightened me as well. Take care.
Hello
I have read the road less traveled, also. Mother, I believe your feedback comes from compassion, however, I am very much alive. Expressing my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and Spirituality, are all within healthy boundaries. I have no shame in expressing myself, nor what support I recieve from others. I also know when not to take on another's shame, in the guize of advice. What I read is more of a reflection of your own desire to attain what you prescribe. that's o.k. I address you as an adult. I don't see you as a parent of mine, or baby's. Nor do I disregard you as a child. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. It's your choice. By writing what I wrote, is in itself, an avenue of healing. I would much rather read about others experiencing the same. Is this not what this board is all about? Taking on a role of therapist, is really codependency. Exprssing one's own experience, strength, and hope, is the solution. These are healthy boundaries.
I have read the road less traveled, also. Mother, I believe your feedback comes from compassion, however, I am very much alive. Expressing my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, and Spirituality, are all within healthy boundaries. I have no shame in expressing myself, nor what support I recieve from others. I also know when not to take on another's shame, in the guize of advice. What I read is more of a reflection of your own desire to attain what you prescribe. that's o.k. I address you as an adult. I don't see you as a parent of mine, or baby's. Nor do I disregard you as a child. Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. It's your choice. By writing what I wrote, is in itself, an avenue of healing. I would much rather read about others experiencing the same. Is this not what this board is all about? Taking on a role of therapist, is really codependency. Exprssing one's own experience, strength, and hope, is the solution. These are healthy boundaries.
Dave p/Babycakes
Your experiences show me i have nothing to complain about! but that's how it works isn't it....my heart goes out to you both, i was listening to a talk once and i think there is huge wisdom in this, when ever we have a problem we tend to go to people with the same problem sure they can give us empathy but if they could help us overcome it they wouldn't have the problem themselves....I thought wow brilliant so simple but i had never thought of it that way!!!!
Dave p i picked up on the fact that you don't do drugs because of your spiritual beliefs - brilliant - how are your spiritual beliefs helping you with all the other things? Well i have to do some work now Take care
Molly.................
Your experiences show me i have nothing to complain about! but that's how it works isn't it....my heart goes out to you both, i was listening to a talk once and i think there is huge wisdom in this, when ever we have a problem we tend to go to people with the same problem sure they can give us empathy but if they could help us overcome it they wouldn't have the problem themselves....I thought wow brilliant so simple but i had never thought of it that way!!!!
Dave p i picked up on the fact that you don't do drugs because of your spiritual beliefs - brilliant - how are your spiritual beliefs helping you with all the other things? Well i have to do some work now Take care
Molly.................
Molly
Thanks for responce. In N.A. literature, there is a suggestion, "Don't judge your recovery by the outside appearence of others. I add to it, "Don't judge my bottom by the outside appearence of others. Empathy is defined by my dictionary as, "Having a sense of another one's feelings, either real or imagined". Whatever reality I percieve, is as real to me, as if it were real. Whilst under the influence of drugs, particularly cocaine, I experienced extreme psychosis. Its much like in the "Lord of the rings", when the main character puts on the ring, and goes into another deminsion. Having surrendered to the Higher Power of my understanding, I immediatly felt the bound of which I separated from when I used. This is what keeps me clean. Faith without works, is dead. A decision without action, is meaningless. Spirituality are forces from outside of the body. If I am aware of forces which not only want to kill me, but want to have me suffer along the way, why wouldn't I want to go the other way to a force which wants me to happy, joyous, and free? When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear. Associating with others with similar challenges, may be a way to transfer shame based issues. It also can, and usually is the only way to find the healing. If I hang around a barbershop long enough, I will get a haircut. Inter-acting with others, honestly, is the pathway of getting out of my own perception. The trick is not turn another into my Higher Power. With this, I broaden my sense of reality. Imagination is not a bad thing. Creativity is the reflection of one's spirituality. Love being nurtured in the process. This can only come from the Higher Power which wants me to happy joyous, and free.
God Bless
Dave P.
Thanks for responce. In N.A. literature, there is a suggestion, "Don't judge your recovery by the outside appearence of others. I add to it, "Don't judge my bottom by the outside appearence of others. Empathy is defined by my dictionary as, "Having a sense of another one's feelings, either real or imagined". Whatever reality I percieve, is as real to me, as if it were real. Whilst under the influence of drugs, particularly cocaine, I experienced extreme psychosis. Its much like in the "Lord of the rings", when the main character puts on the ring, and goes into another deminsion. Having surrendered to the Higher Power of my understanding, I immediatly felt the bound of which I separated from when I used. This is what keeps me clean. Faith without works, is dead. A decision without action, is meaningless. Spirituality are forces from outside of the body. If I am aware of forces which not only want to kill me, but want to have me suffer along the way, why wouldn't I want to go the other way to a force which wants me to happy, joyous, and free? When the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear. Associating with others with similar challenges, may be a way to transfer shame based issues. It also can, and usually is the only way to find the healing. If I hang around a barbershop long enough, I will get a haircut. Inter-acting with others, honestly, is the pathway of getting out of my own perception. The trick is not turn another into my Higher Power. With this, I broaden my sense of reality. Imagination is not a bad thing. Creativity is the reflection of one's spirituality. Love being nurtured in the process. This can only come from the Higher Power which wants me to happy joyous, and free.
God Bless
Dave P.
Hello Dave P I must post this....I read your post and thank you so much for posting it. Before reading your post I I knew how I felt but I did not have the words to articulate it. I, also, am a military brat. I find t7hat when I look back through my years. I relaize that almost every year of my life I would lose a friend due to relocation. I'm sure you know how it is living on base. It's almost like someone's always leaving in every hour and on every day. It's a thing that seems so disturbing now that I look at it in reflection on my childhood. I left hawaii at five...moved to south carolina right after that and then to camp lejeune for three years before we again moved back here where I am now. My dad retired here. But ironically enough I am one of the lucky ones. Even though I did not move as mucha s the other friends I made did, I still had tho watch them go. This inadvertently made me resilient and resourceful which I am glad for in the end, but I find that now my patterns of behavior have made me into this obsessive person when it comes to leaving people. I shut down planning not to call them, planning not to write them. All this to make my myself not miss them. To not remember them in the end.
Who wants to REMEMBER that their friends are gone, right? "
Many friends are confused now by my behavior and even though I'm sorry in the end, compulsively I just end up doing it again. There is a reality much like death in that equation.
I was very comforted by your post. And felt the need to say that. I am horribly addicted to sleeping pills right now and am trying to find some stillness in my life to help. I carried along in this current that carries me away from everything that's healthy.
Who wants to REMEMBER that their friends are gone, right? "
Many friends are confused now by my behavior and even though I'm sorry in the end, compulsively I just end up doing it again. There is a reality much like death in that equation.
I was very comforted by your post. And felt the need to say that. I am horribly addicted to sleeping pills right now and am trying to find some stillness in my life to help. I carried along in this current that carries me away from everything that's healthy.
