Hi all,
So I saw my AP this morning and we had a really cool discussion about neurotransmitters and opiod abuse and why you get depressed (beyond the physical withdrawals) when you are detoxing.
So read on if you want...
So basically, opiods fill up a receptor called the mu-opiod receptor. There is also another recepter group kalled kappa receptors. When kappa receptors are filled, they can cause dysphoria or depression. When you are detoxing, or in withdrawals, and your mu receptors are starting to release the opiod chemicals that have been attached to them, it also sets off a cascade of kappa agonists (which means a set of chemicals that like the kappa receptor and cause it to function) which can cause the feelings of overwhelming depression and dysphoria often associated with withdrawals which are beyond the physical symptoms.
The cool thing about suboxone is that not only is it a strong mu agonist (so it fills up all of your mu receptors without getting the "high" and it binds really tightly so it bumps off any other opiates if you tried to take them while you were on it), so it takes away hte physical symptoms of withdrawals and a lot of the cravings, but it's also a kappa ANTagonist, which means that it binds to the kappa receptors, preventing them from having an effect, and can often act as a mild anti-depressant during withdrawals.
I just thought that was cool...
SP
It's also an opiate.
yeah, that' what i said - it's a mu agonist (ie, opiate).... uh oh, was that confusing?
Morning SP...good information regarding Suboxone. I must say I have up close and personal knowledge of the antidepressant qualities in it. The depression for me while detoxing and quitting copious amounts of opioids was hands down the worst of the many symptoms that I experienced. I firmly believe that that is what led me to relapse. I am not that strong...while very determined every time I quit because my life was so miserable. It was equally as miserable off the drugs. I was really stuck in a catch 22 situation and it was making me crazy. Up until about 6 months ago I lived in Canada where this medication is not yet available.
Methadone was what was offered to me for my problems with addiction. I tried it for 3 days at a very low dose because of desperation. I knew that I was entering a whole other level of hell....so I just stopped going to the clinic and stopped taking and quickly resumed my drug career.
It was a long and painful road that led me Suboxone. The doctor the rx's it is an "Addiction Specialist" with first hand knowledge of addiction, her returned home from Vietnam a heroin junkie and an alcoholic and remained that way for many years.
I trust him with my life and he is a no-nonsense hard but loving Doctor that insists on a strong 12 step program or equally intense form of recovery. I have been on sub now for over 3 months and while I do experience lows in my life I do believe that its just LIFE...and I no longer reach for percocet or oxycodone to relieve me of those lows. I am grateful for having found this medicine to aid me on my journey of recovery and always very cognisant of the fact that I will eventually have to wien off of it. I am not experiencing the same anxiety that I did with the other narcotics thinking of this.
So, while I do believe strongly in this medicine and have had very minimal side effects from it, I know that like any medication there will be drawbacks. I don't like it when people tote it as a "miracle cure". Only because of my own experience and the realization that there are a magnitude of others things that must be done while taking it..
Ok, I guess I am just a rambling on now...but I wanted to thank you for the information. Also a question...what is your experience with Suboxone? I know you are a nurse, but have you had personal experience?
Thanks,
Kerri
Methadone was what was offered to me for my problems with addiction. I tried it for 3 days at a very low dose because of desperation. I knew that I was entering a whole other level of hell....so I just stopped going to the clinic and stopped taking and quickly resumed my drug career.
It was a long and painful road that led me Suboxone. The doctor the rx's it is an "Addiction Specialist" with first hand knowledge of addiction, her returned home from Vietnam a heroin junkie and an alcoholic and remained that way for many years.
I trust him with my life and he is a no-nonsense hard but loving Doctor that insists on a strong 12 step program or equally intense form of recovery. I have been on sub now for over 3 months and while I do experience lows in my life I do believe that its just LIFE...and I no longer reach for percocet or oxycodone to relieve me of those lows. I am grateful for having found this medicine to aid me on my journey of recovery and always very cognisant of the fact that I will eventually have to wien off of it. I am not experiencing the same anxiety that I did with the other narcotics thinking of this.
So, while I do believe strongly in this medicine and have had very minimal side effects from it, I know that like any medication there will be drawbacks. I don't like it when people tote it as a "miracle cure". Only because of my own experience and the realization that there are a magnitude of others things that must be done while taking it..
Ok, I guess I am just a rambling on now...but I wanted to thank you for the information. Also a question...what is your experience with Suboxone? I know you are a nurse, but have you had personal experience?
Thanks,
Kerri
Yeah, most of the stuff I post isn't me the nurse, it's me the me with some clinical knowledge that goes beyond my own personal experience ;)
I have an addiction psychiatrist who I love, in addition to my "real" psychiatrist and he started me on suboxone about 2 weeks ago an I think it's awesome. I am on 4mg 2x a day (we titrated up from 2mg 2x a day) and the only real side effect I'm having is dry mouth. But I need to be drinking more fluids anyway :) I don't believe in miracle cures either, but I do believe in medication having the possibility to provide your body with some physiologic relief that can open you up to be able to do more work in support groups, therapy, etc, by stabilizing your biochemicals so that they are somewhat normal. So I am very excited about suboxone and I feel really good about starting to take it. Also, my younger brother has been on it for over a year, and although he has relapsed with other drugs, opiates are his biggest issue and it has REALLY helped him. But he's a moron and doesn't stick with the rest of the work that he is supposed to be doing :) But he's getting there.
So (speaking of rambling) that's all :)
I have an addiction psychiatrist who I love, in addition to my "real" psychiatrist and he started me on suboxone about 2 weeks ago an I think it's awesome. I am on 4mg 2x a day (we titrated up from 2mg 2x a day) and the only real side effect I'm having is dry mouth. But I need to be drinking more fluids anyway :) I don't believe in miracle cures either, but I do believe in medication having the possibility to provide your body with some physiologic relief that can open you up to be able to do more work in support groups, therapy, etc, by stabilizing your biochemicals so that they are somewhat normal. So I am very excited about suboxone and I feel really good about starting to take it. Also, my younger brother has been on it for over a year, and although he has relapsed with other drugs, opiates are his biggest issue and it has REALLY helped him. But he's a moron and doesn't stick with the rest of the work that he is supposed to be doing :) But he's getting there.
So (speaking of rambling) that's all :)
Thats great...congrats on your clean time and taking your life back! Its a joy in itself to wake up in the morning and not have your very first thought about getting a handful of pills in your mouth so you can get your day started.
That is what the sub has done for me...I don't have cravings at all and even the thought of taking a pill makes me gag!
My husband is taking them and I know he is, however he doesn't abuse them. I really don't think he is addicted the way I was...but I know he is dependant on them. He promised my doctor that he would stop taking them...he takes 1 day or every other day and never before 6...so in his mind thats ok.
I have a strong suspicion that he was w/ding the last few days, just his mood and well you know all the signs. My son called me and told me that my husband had called him and asked him to send his meds! Now it all makes sense. Watching him the last few days has made me stronger in my resolve. Even at those low doses he was screwed! But of course...deny deny deny! Whatever! I am so done with him! LOL...here I go rambling again!
That is what the sub has done for me...I don't have cravings at all and even the thought of taking a pill makes me gag!
My husband is taking them and I know he is, however he doesn't abuse them. I really don't think he is addicted the way I was...but I know he is dependant on them. He promised my doctor that he would stop taking them...he takes 1 day or every other day and never before 6...so in his mind thats ok.
I have a strong suspicion that he was w/ding the last few days, just his mood and well you know all the signs. My son called me and told me that my husband had called him and asked him to send his meds! Now it all makes sense. Watching him the last few days has made me stronger in my resolve. Even at those low doses he was screwed! But of course...deny deny deny! Whatever! I am so done with him! LOL...here I go rambling again!
ugh. yes, they taste DISGUSTING!!! blahhhghhhhh....
and there are very few things that make me nauseaus to taste.
balehghghghg :)
me
and there are very few things that make me nauseaus to taste.
balehghghghg :)
me
Yeah I stay confused.
LMAO.
LMAO.
Morning SP...good information regarding Suboxone. I must say I have up close and personal knowledge of the antidepressant qualities in it. The depression for me while detoxing and quitting copious amounts of opioids was hands down the worst of the many symptoms that I experienced. I firmly believe that that is what led me to relapse. I am not that strong...while very determined every time I quit because my life was so miserable. It was equally as miserable off the drugs. I was really stuck in a catch 22 situation and it was making me crazy.
Ditto.
Ditto.
ok, I am confused, wha is suboxone, is it an antdepresan or a similar form of mehadone, I am clean 89 days today, but still have alot of depression off and on and alot of quilitiness and my Dr.has tried me on a couple of antidepresants but I don't see alot of improvement. (Prozac then Cymbalta)
Thanks
Felicia
One day at a time,
Thanks
Felicia
One day at a time,
Ok Felicia,
Suboxone has a partial opiate agonist called buprenorphine (which serves a similar function such as vicodin, etc) but it does not get you high and is prescribed for the purpose of withdrawing from opiates or for maintenance treatment to reduce the cravings. It also has some opiate antagonist capabilities which block up some of your opiate receptors without actually activating them (or making your body feel like it has opiates in it). It also has a small amount of a powerful opiate antagonist called narcan, which doesn't do anything when you take the drug, but was added so that people won't inject it IV or else it will send them into comlete withdrawals. So the purpose of it is more like methadone, without all the wonky side effects of methadone (if I have my information straight).
But, the cool thing about suboxone is that it does have some antidepressant properties because it blocks another receptor that gets activated during withdrawals and contributes to depression while detoxing. That's what the "mild anti-depression" business was about.
If you are looking for an anti-depresant, sometimes it's just about trying different ones to find the right one. It took me 4 different ones before I found one that worked (because I have both anxiety [my primary] and some depresion) which is Effexor. That is working for me. But it is really very different for everyone, which anti-depressant to use if you need one, and sometimes it's a hell of a process finding one.
Let me know if you have more questions :)
SP
Who just cant shut the f--- up :)
Suboxone has a partial opiate agonist called buprenorphine (which serves a similar function such as vicodin, etc) but it does not get you high and is prescribed for the purpose of withdrawing from opiates or for maintenance treatment to reduce the cravings. It also has some opiate antagonist capabilities which block up some of your opiate receptors without actually activating them (or making your body feel like it has opiates in it). It also has a small amount of a powerful opiate antagonist called narcan, which doesn't do anything when you take the drug, but was added so that people won't inject it IV or else it will send them into comlete withdrawals. So the purpose of it is more like methadone, without all the wonky side effects of methadone (if I have my information straight).
But, the cool thing about suboxone is that it does have some antidepressant properties because it blocks another receptor that gets activated during withdrawals and contributes to depression while detoxing. That's what the "mild anti-depression" business was about.
If you are looking for an anti-depresant, sometimes it's just about trying different ones to find the right one. It took me 4 different ones before I found one that worked (because I have both anxiety [my primary] and some depresion) which is Effexor. That is working for me. But it is really very different for everyone, which anti-depressant to use if you need one, and sometimes it's a hell of a process finding one.
Let me know if you have more questions :)
SP
Who just cant shut the f--- up :)
Thanks so much! Suboxone is not what I need because I am through my withdraw and have very little cravings. I have anxiey and depression as well, so I guess I am doing the right thing by trying different antidepressants with my Dr. I was really just curious if methodone and sub were the same, I have never heard good things about methadone. I mean not good if you are really trying to get better.
Thanks for answering!
Felicia
89 days
one day at a time
Thanks for answering!
Felicia
89 days
one day at a time
Soul staes
not according to this poster..................
Jessie1 Posted: February 4, 2007, 1:10 PM
Yes, I get a huge BUZZ on Suboxone. I have endless energy and also opitimism. It does almost the same as my codiene addiction did for me. The question is, however, will I be able to come off the Subs??? I think that that is on everyones minds.....
Good luck!
I took sub for about 7 days about 3 1/2 years ago.I definitely felt more energy and happier.I knew something was up.
| QUOTE |
| but it does not get you high |
not according to this poster..................
Jessie1 Posted: February 4, 2007, 1:10 PM
Yes, I get a huge BUZZ on Suboxone. I have endless energy and also opitimism. It does almost the same as my codiene addiction did for me. The question is, however, will I be able to come off the Subs??? I think that that is on everyones minds.....
Good luck!
I took sub for about 7 days about 3 1/2 years ago.I definitely felt more energy and happier.I knew something was up.
My bad. It's not supposed to get you high, especially if you are on the right dose. And I mean high as in, feeling lke you were when you were taking other opiates. I think the increased energy, etc is a normal reaction to the drug (especially given what it does biochemically, like what I was talking about when I originally posted the information I just found out).
And usually, if you're getting "high" you're on the wrong dose.
That's just what I know (which certainly ain't everything)....
SP
And usually, if you're getting "high" you're on the wrong dose.
That's just what I know (which certainly ain't everything)....
SP
Morning Tim!
While I have no doubt that this medication certainly gets some people "high". I just never experienced that at all. The only high that I was feeling was one of "normalcy" which had long eluded me.
As with every drug it will effect different people in different ways. I am happy that I did not have this effect, for if I did I would have serious reservations regarding taking it...and perhaps not be where I am today!
While I have no doubt that this medication certainly gets some people "high". I just never experienced that at all. The only high that I was feeling was one of "normalcy" which had long eluded me.
As with every drug it will effect different people in different ways. I am happy that I did not have this effect, for if I did I would have serious reservations regarding taking it...and perhaps not be where I am today!
I'm not making a judgement about Sub.There are people in meetings on Sub and Methadone.Whatever help you need to get clean is fine by me......but,I don't like it be touted as some wonder drug.It's a drug and it's a partial agonist opiate whose side effect can be euphoria.Not everyone experiences euphoria but I've heard many people say how it gives them energy and makes them feel good.That=Euphoria in my mind.
Make sure you educate yourself completely about it.The Suboxone board is very enlightning.
KeeKee.....I think you are doing awesome.One of the things you are doing right is realizing that you need more and making meetings.I think you have an excellent doctor who sees beyond chemistry.From everything you said,I think he's the real deal and will get you off the right way.
Make sure you educate yourself completely about it.The Suboxone board is very enlightning.
KeeKee.....I think you are doing awesome.One of the things you are doing right is realizing that you need more and making meetings.I think you have an excellent doctor who sees beyond chemistry.From everything you said,I think he's the real deal and will get you off the right way.
Thank you Tim,
You're right....I am so aware...and getting stronger...and am greatful for all the loving support that I have found here....and in AA/NA!!! Yes and of course my pain in @ss Doc!
You're right....I am so aware...and getting stronger...and am greatful for all the loving support that I have found here....and in AA/NA!!! Yes and of course my pain in @ss Doc!
I have posted in a few other places about Suboxone and my feelings about it. I don't know if that was directed at me, Tim, but I really believe that if the suboxone can help me stop obsessing and craving all the time, it sets me up to be able to do the REAL work involved in recovery. It's definitely not a wonder drug, but if it balances out some of the chemistry so that I'm not thinking about pills all the time, I can focus on much more important things. Does that make snesee? That's why I take it....
Kee Kee and Soul Picnic:
I understand what you are both saying about obsessing about taking pills. After I went through detox...and tried to get myself together, I had cravings like you could not believe. It was terrifying how obsessed my thoughts were.
I didn't cave in, but it was gripping me pretty tightly. I finally went to my physician, who was assisting me with the detox, and we tried Wellbutrin. I cannot tell you the relief it gave me...really, within a few days.
I am so grateful that I don't have to think about pills all the time. It was exhausting me mentally, physically and spiritually. I have had other friends who used sub to get clean...one for only 22 days on a strict taper plan supervised by an addiction specialist...she is 6+ months clean, and one that went over months, but with a taper plan from the start. She is over 1 year clean. I think suboxone can be a powerful tool and if I could get one loved one in my family interested, I would consider it a blessing.
Glad you girls are safe today!
Kee Kee, you are amazing!
Peace.
Sarah
I understand what you are both saying about obsessing about taking pills. After I went through detox...and tried to get myself together, I had cravings like you could not believe. It was terrifying how obsessed my thoughts were.
I didn't cave in, but it was gripping me pretty tightly. I finally went to my physician, who was assisting me with the detox, and we tried Wellbutrin. I cannot tell you the relief it gave me...really, within a few days.
I am so grateful that I don't have to think about pills all the time. It was exhausting me mentally, physically and spiritually. I have had other friends who used sub to get clean...one for only 22 days on a strict taper plan supervised by an addiction specialist...she is 6+ months clean, and one that went over months, but with a taper plan from the start. She is over 1 year clean. I think suboxone can be a powerful tool and if I could get one loved one in my family interested, I would consider it a blessing.
Glad you girls are safe today!
Kee Kee, you are amazing!
Peace.
Sarah
Sarah!!! OMG....there you are! Where have you been? Listen I have thought of you so often. I really hope things are going ok...I have missed you around here. But I know being the most amazing talented artist this board has you have other obligations!
How you feeling....I know you were so sad after your dear friend died. I hope that you are feeling good.
I remember like yesterday when you started you detox....it was June 10th? I know that it was so just days ahead of me and I will never forget the strength that I gained from you....you my dear are amazing!
Unlike you...I did not make it that time....but through the grace of my HP and the love that filled my heart...I did finally make it!
I know you are busy but its so nice to see you around here! I have been around all week...chained to my puter...working!! so I have been popping in and out all week! Next week I will have to travel...this week home!
Big fat smooches to you!!!!
I just wanted to ad...no one was more skeptical about Sub than me. I was really at the end of my rope....and was surprised and believed to have gotten my life back when I first got induced with sub. I truly believe that it is at that moment when you are in the throws of w/d and ready to literally die.....when relief comes...not just from w/d...but this peace washes over me. That I believe what some might call the "miracle". Other than that.....instant feeling....no miracle just hard work and determination!
How you feeling....I know you were so sad after your dear friend died. I hope that you are feeling good.
I remember like yesterday when you started you detox....it was June 10th? I know that it was so just days ahead of me and I will never forget the strength that I gained from you....you my dear are amazing!
Unlike you...I did not make it that time....but through the grace of my HP and the love that filled my heart...I did finally make it!
I know you are busy but its so nice to see you around here! I have been around all week...chained to my puter...working!! so I have been popping in and out all week! Next week I will have to travel...this week home!
Big fat smooches to you!!!!
I just wanted to ad...no one was more skeptical about Sub than me. I was really at the end of my rope....and was surprised and believed to have gotten my life back when I first got induced with sub. I truly believe that it is at that moment when you are in the throws of w/d and ready to literally die.....when relief comes...not just from w/d...but this peace washes over me. That I believe what some might call the "miracle". Other than that.....instant feeling....no miracle just hard work and determination!
