More On The "god Thing"

When I first started showing up at meetings I was really concerned about the God Thing. After all, I considered myself a confirmed atheist, and I did not like the idea of being recruited into some cult. I expressed this concern early on and was told to relax, not to worry about it, and certainly to not allow it to deter me from meetings.

I was also told that recovery was not about religion, it was about spirituality. Religion is for people who want to go to heaven, and spirituality is for people who want to get out of hell. Now that was something I could relate to.

Of course, being an intellectual I did not wish to be accused of being closed minded so I did some reading in the basic AA literature about the subject. The following is an excerpt from that literature, under the chapter "We Agnostics."


Lack of power, that was our dilemma. we had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?

Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem. That means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral. And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ig


We know how he feels. We have shared his honest doubt and prejudice. Some of us have been violently anti-religious. To others, the word "God" brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood. Perhaps we rejected this particular conception because it seemed inadequate. With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely. We were bothered with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly. We looked upon this world of warring individuals, warring theological systems, and inexplicable calamity, with deep skepticism. We looked askance at many individuals who claimed to be godly. How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, make all this?" There was a feeling of awe and wonder, but it was fleeting and soon lost.

Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.

Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him. As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps. We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him. To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.

When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God. This applies, too, to other spiritual expressions which you find in this book. Do not let any prejudice you may have against spiritual terms deter you from honestly asking yourself what they mean to you. At the start, this was all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him. Afterward, we found ourselves accepting many things which then seemed entirely out of reach. That was growth, but if we wished to grow we had to begin somewhere. So we used our own conception, however limited it was.

We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. --"Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.*

That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe. When people presented us with spiritual approaches, how frequently did we all say, "I wish I had what that man has. I'm sure it would work if I could only believe as he believes. But I cannot accept as surely true the many articles of faith which are so plain to him." So it was comforting to learn that we could commence at a simpler level.


Ok, I admit it -- I considered myself an athiest for several years in my early 20s.

Thought I had it all figured out. Really educated and smart. Four years of college and a J.D. degree. Used to argue the point with anybody who wanted to argue the point. And I was pretty good at arguing. Made some good points along the way. Spent time in the drunk clubs arguing the point. Usually arguing one point here, another point there. Picking and chosing.

The aguments work better that way.

Then I looked around and started thinking about the evidence. Then I started studying the evidence. Then I started really examining the evidence. Applied my reasoning ability to it. I had been trained to reason. Spent a lot of money getting trained to reason.

Then I started trying to exclude the possibility of a power in this world greater than me. Couldn't do it. Based on the evidence, and after much thought and consideration, I just couldn't exclude the possibility of a power greater than me.

Kinda like the ultimate question in a criminal trial -- you know, "reasonable doubt." Could I exclude and prove than there is not a power in this world greater than me, any power in this world greater than me, beyond a reasonable doubt ?

Just couldn't do it. Couldn't exclude the possibility. The evidence was just too compelling, convincing and strong.

And now, I admit it. I don't consider myelf an athiest.

And the power is my friend -- always there for me. And I think I'm better for it.

I have a relationship with this power. Yep, I talk to the power. We communicate. The power does for me things that I can't do for myself.

Always, but especially when I ask. Because my power doesn't impose.

Didn't make me a weaker person -- made me a better and stronger person. And I am happy, content, peaceful (for the most part) and serene.

And I think better now.

Not so anxious about things.

Because I can still remember those dark days 30 years ago -- trying to do things on my own, without the help of the power. And the booze -- well, that was a long time ago -- still there, on every street corner after all these years, but, as I say, that was a long time ago.

May peace reside in you.

AugustWest, I wish you health. And serenity.














The Fruit...


The fruit of silence is prayer
the fruit of prayer is faith
the fruit of faith is love
the fruit of love is service
the fruit of service is peace.

Mother Theresa of Calcutta


Some come here wanting to know what they can do, or how they can cope, or seeking answers before they know the questions, and oftentimes, i am sure, wonder what life could be like if they took the 12 Steps seriously. Here's a post from "Sammy" from one of the other boards (Pain Pills) that I've copied (i am very sure she won't mind). She is such a tender heart. Just reading it answers a lot of questions. For those who feel like they are losing hope, here's some hope ... and encouragement.


good morning everyone -

we hear a lot about spirituality and spiritual principles that the 12 step program embraces. after all, this is a program of recovery that centers on the recovery of our spirit; one for this addict that was broken after years of buying into the thought that fear was the supreme - and one that i perceived the only imaginable way of coping with those fears was by my use/abuse of drugs. ouchie! how dare I be uncomfortable!

the 12 step program gave me a guideline (the steps) of how to replace those fears by practicing the principles that each step teaches us. here is a list of the principles as it applies to each step:

step 1. we admitted we were powerless over the effects of addiction that our lives had become unmanageable. principles to achieve with this step - honesty, acceptance and surrender

step 2. came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. principle - hope

step 3. made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. principle - faith

step 4. made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. principle -courage.

step 5. admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs. principle - integrity

step 6. were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. principle - willingness

step 7. humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. principle - humility

step 8. made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. principles - justice and brotherly love

step 9. made direct amends to such people, wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. principles - self-discipline and good judgment.

step 10. continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it. principles - perseverance and open mindedness

step 11. sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. principle - awareness.

step 12. having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs. principles - love and service.

i can clearly see how trying to live by these principles are evident in my life today. i remember a time when it was much easier for me to lie about something than face the truth - standing with courage to face whatever my dilemma of self was at the time was a scary feeling. i feared rejection or being chastised for who i was. i always looked outside of myself for my inner Power and i think this was a major reason as to why i did not have a clue to who i was when i came to recovery. that coupled with the fact that when i didn't find what i was seeking from others (praise, adulation etc.) my soul felt utter defeat and i turned to pills to numb my pain.

with this said, this program teaches me daily how to deal with my self-imposed defeating thoughts. how to change with courage in order to live with serenity and peace. i am finding that each day i don't use and continue to embrace the steps of this program, my integrity and truth. even on the days when it's difficult for my ego to accept what is happening, i hang on to the thoughts that i can and will get through this - sober and cared for by the Power of love.

i can love others today and don't have to resort to tactics such as lying, cheating, belittling or some not so honest ways to deal with life that had become all too common before recovery. and in my humanness, when im experiencing ego in all its glory, Iim reminded that there is a way out of it. this spiritual program of recovery has laid out steps 10 & 11...perseverance, open-mindedness and awarenessaware of the things i can change for the positive. im reminded that this is progress, not perfection that is important. i'm learning...i'm learning...i'm learning and hope to continue to learn for a long time.

being accountable to my family, friends, job, co-workers, clients, creditors, etc. has brought new found freedom to my soul that once was only an illusion - something i would sit around and wish for but not willing to grab. i guess what i'm trying to share here is that by viewing a life through the eyes of my Higher Power and the spiritual principles of this program this has served as the grounding for the moral decisions i make today. love; honor; service; and trust based relationships between myself and the people i interact with, rather than fear based ones, have been the incredible by-product of what i have received when i became willing to listen - willing to put into action the guidelines this program offered.

my heart would be so grateful to hear from the members of this community how you see the spiritual principles at work in your life today. i'm going to throw this out for discussion and hope to see some of the ways/examples you have seen the promises come true and the spiritual principles that you practice of 12 step recovery come true for you.

thanks so much for letting me share - hugs all around.

love -

sammy


SERENITY PRAYER

God, Grant me the Serenity
To Accept the things I can not change
The courage to change the things I can
And the Wisdom
To know the difference.



Thank you for the posts... I don't know if I am "ready" for step 2, but i'm not sure if anyone is ever ready. After reading your posts and thinking about what it means to accept a higher power, I believe you and deep inside know that this is necessary in my life. I'm ready to attend my first meeting and find any means necessary to accomplish step 2.

I too could always argue points against religion and at some point turned from questioning religion to actively disbelieving spirituality.

Maybe that was my turning point to full addiction. I can see how the brain could replace hope with anesthesia.

August told me that I can't think my way out of this and I see what he means. Like so many others the idea of accepting a higher power feels impossible. I feel so strongly that organized religion is a coping mechanism for the brain to understand the unexplainable. Of course the puritan depictions of God seem much less believable as you mature and start to seem more like fantasy than positive support for your life.

Much like the previous post, I cannot fully believe that there is not a spiritual power higher than myself. I simply haven't found it or sought it out for myself.

On one hand I feel like I may be turning to an emotional crutch, but then again, what is pot for me? It's certainly a crutch.

I have no dispute that spirituality and even most organized religions are founded on positive principles and morals. However my pre-conceived ideas of spirituality are based on the religious experience of my childhood.

My fiancee's parents are both pastors and I know that while I may find my spiritual support, it most likely will not come from that organization. I need to find a way to think and feel outside of the religious box.

I am very interested in hearing from others with the same dilemma. How did you do it? What worked? Do you learn to understand this at meetings?

Again thank you for the posts and I will post again after my first meeting.
It's been said, That during a war there is not one athiest in a fox hole fearing the thought of dying in one. Just some food for thought.

Blessings
Coolbeans


MEDITATION
Meditation, Daily Inspiration, Spiritual Growth

The very first time
I sat down to meditate
it felt like being in a dentist's chair.
Actually for the first
many, many attempts
it felt that way.
My nose itched,
my legs seemed leaden;
I was a squirm hoping to be done with it.

When the time was over
my body literally raced upright,
like a prisoner released on bail.
Had I been graded on this effort,
the mark would have been F minus.

Yet I persisted,
because something deep within me
knew it was imperative
that I continue my meditation.
Waking up cannot occur
while our attention is fixed
slavelike on the screen
of the external world;
yet in our normal ego state
that is precisely
where we are staring.
We are in a trance.

So I came to the dreaded exercise
prodded from within,
and hating it.
--Meditation! Oh, no!
I did not tell anyone
about this agony of resistance,
because I didn't want
to be marked a failure.
But privately I was certain
I was hopelessly backward
as a spiritual apprentice.

I brought my flawed
and resisting body along
and willed it through the meditation.
Eyes closed, my mind
would jump from thought
to thought to thought like a mad leapfrog.

Everything in me
wanted the silence to be over;
and somewhere an imaginary eye
kept consulting an imaginary watch.
Week after week, month
after month, I kept trying.
It was a comedy, really:
me fighting off God.
The battle went on like that
for about eight long months.
Far from bringing peace,
each and every meditation
was a lesson in misery.

Then.
One day, like a feather
cutting through cement,
Something suddenly
took over my meditation.
One second
I was noticing an itch
on my neck, and in the next
-- for no reason whatsoever--
a Presence rose up
and engulfed me
in a huge unearthly smile.
All resistance melted away like vapor
and all there was left
was the Smile.
I was swimming in it.
I floated on its waves,
a cork bobbing up
and down on Love.

When I finally opened my eyes,
a ghost of the Smile still remained.
My mind was incredulous -- I knew full well
I had done nothing to earn this gift!
Yet there it was
-- it had happened.
Following this experience,
I looked on meditation
in an entirely new light.
I now saw becoming still
as an immense luxury,
even though at first I had no idea
if I would ever be revisited by
the Smile.

To my complete amazement,
I discovered the Smile
would return whenever
I entered the Silence.
To this day, it is still with me
-- it shows up each time I get still,
and sometimes even during the day,
when my eyes are open
and I think of God.

Meditate.
Meditate even if you dislike it,
and do it daily.
It tells the Presence
you are ready.


Wow Bob, that was inspiring! It was a hypnotizing read to say the least. I think I read it ten times just because I liked the way it made me feel. Thank you.
Me
this may help someone thinking about the "god" thing.
debating. pondering the question. wondering if you can get there another way.

no bible thumping or strong jesus talk. just rational and reasoning.
_________________________________

Why Believe in God?

There are two types of men, those who are afraid to lose God, and those who are afraid that they might find Him
--Blaise Pascal, philosopher and scientist

Does God exist?

This is surely a fundamental question that nearly all humans have pondered with throughout human history. The vast array of religions are a testimony to the human tendency to grasp at the divine. This in itself is perhaps the strongest testimony to Gods existence. It can be said that all humans have an innate desire; an emptiness that they feel must be filled. The human quest for power, riches, sensual pleasure, security, fame and indulgence in natural pleasures is a response to the heartfelt desire for a higher goodness. Temporal pleasures and even natural love is often transitory and ultimately unfulfilling. As humans indulge in their passions their desires continue to go unfulfilled. Many attempt to fill the void with increasing worldly pleasures with little results.

Such powerful and elusive desires are a cry from the soul which seeks something that can not be gratified by the things of this world. For the moment we will consider discontent of the heart as a mark of God calling us to embrace him.

But I demand physical proof!

St. Thomas Aquinas proposed five proofs in which humans can use natural reason to prove the existence of God through extrinsic evidence. Through the use of natural reason we can logically conclude in the existence of God. Yet strictly speaking, Gods existence cannot be definitively proven through laboratory tests and experimental science. Not all things are subject to experimental science. It is illogical to say, "If I can not see, taste, touch, feel or hear something it must not exist!" Reason and extrinsic evidence must also be considered. Experimental science and intrinsic evidence cannot definitively prove historical events, and yet by reason we know they have occurred. And surely were science falters and extrinsic evidence fail, reason and intrinsic evidence can prove the spiritual which can not be measured by material sciences.

St. Thomas Aquinas five proofs of the existence of God

Aquinas first proof is through the argument of motion. It can be noted that some things in the universe are in motion and it follows that whatever is in the state of motion must have been placed in motion by another such act. Motion in itself is nothing less then the reduction of something from the state of potentiality to actuality. Because something can not be in potentiality and actuality simultaneously, it follows that something can not be a mover of itself. A simple example of this is a rubber ball motionless on a flat surface. It has the potential for motion, but is not currently in the state of actual motion. In order for this to happen, something else in motion must set the ball in motion, be that gravity, another moving object or the wind. And yet something must have set that object in motion as well (even gravity, a force caused by matter warping the space-time fabric, attributes its existence to pre-existing matter and the exchange of pre-existing graviton particles). Thus pre-existing motions cause all motions. Yet, this chain can not extend into infinity because that would deny a first mover that set all else in motion. Without a first mover, nothing could be set in motion. Thus we acknowledge the first and primary mover as God.

The second proof follows closely with the first and expounds the principle of causality. St. Thomas explains that in the world of sense there is an order of causes and effects. There is a cause for all things such as the existence of a clock. And nothing can cause itself into existence. A clock cannot will itself into existence, it must be created and caused into existence by something else. A clockmaker creates a clock and causes its existence, and yet the material of the clock and the clockmaker did not cause themselves to exist. Something else must have caused their existence. All things can attribute their existence to a first cause that began all causes and all things. We call this first cause God.

Aquinas next explains that things of this universe have a transitory nature in which they are generated and then corrupt over time. Because of this the things of nature can be said to be "possible to be and possible not to be". Since it is impossible for these things always to exist, then it indicates a time when they did not exist. If there are things which are transitory (and are possible not to be) then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. However, as was already explained in his second proof, there must have been a first cause that was not of transitory nature that could have generated the beginning of nature.

In his fourth point Aquinas notes that there is a certain gradation in all things. For instance we can group things that are hot according to varying degrees of the amount of heat perceptible in that object. In classifying objects there is always something which displays the maximum fullness of that characteristic. Thus universal qualities in man such as justice and goodness must attribute their varying qualities to God; the source of maximum and perfect justice and goodness.

Finally, Thomas Aquinas says that the order of nature presupposes a higher plan in creation. The laws governing the universe presuppose a universal legislature who authored the order of the universe. We cannot say that chance creates order in the universe. If you drop a cup on the floor it shatters into bits and has become disordered. But if you were to drop bits of the cup, they would not assemble together into a cup. This is an example of the inherent disorder prevalent in the universe when things are left to chance. The existence of order and natural laws presupposes a divine intelligence who authored the universe into being.

Conclusions from St. Thomas Aquinas proofs

These proofs reveal many truths about the divine God. The existence of life and the order of creation can be attributed to God; the cause and creator of the universe. From the principal of causality we know that God is infinite and beyond the laws of nature and our human universe. In order for him to be the first cause, he must have been in existence before all else in the universe. We know that nature is composed of things that are not eternal but are transitory. Thus the universe attributes its transitory nature to a first cause that cannot be defined as transitory and is thus not a part of nature. So God is neither of a finite lifetime, nor is he "inseparably a part of nature". Nature by itself is not God. We also know that God is the divine source of justice and goodness; attributes found in all men and woman in varying degrees. In fact our universal feelings of justice demand a God. Justice is not a human attribute created by us, it is a quality imprinted in our very being by our creator. A being who must also posses the very quintessence of justice in order to endow us with justice.

Finally, we know that God is personal. It can be likewise argued that the qualities that make humans personal and conscience are what place us above other created things such as plants and animals. Since God is a higher order of being, he is likewise the very quintessence of a personal being.

But why do bad things happen to good people?

So where is this supremely good, personal and just God in our world? Why so much misery and suffering? This is a fundamental mystery for which human reason cannot fully explain. Although we can reasonably conclude to the existence of God we cannot hope to fully fathom the infinite and divine intellect of our creator with finite human minds.

However, we can reason that God has decided to endow us with free will, a tremendous gift that gives humans the freedom to choose between love of God and hatred of him. We can choose between good and evil. So why did he decide to give us the freedom to choose evil? It is enough to say that God created us as human beings and not as preprogrammed robots. In his infinite goodness he desired the free love of humanity over forced obedience to his will. For love cannot be forced, it must be given by desire and choice.

Because of our free will, some people have embraced evil and selfishness to satiate themselves at the expense of others. True evil is a result of desire of oneself over that of God, and thus sin and evil is a rejection of God. Because God is of infinite perfection, beatitude, and justice, he cannot allow sin to go unpunished. Neither can he allow sinful people to embrace him in his fullness in heaven. Thus our world, tainted by sin, is racked with much sadness and suffering. Sin separates us from the all-pleasing and loving God.

As emphasized before, the simultaneous existence of good and evil is a mystery to human intelligence, but it in no way proves that God does not exist. It only points to our own finite and limited existence. Our God is infinitely good and just, and thus as the source of our lives were are created to be his friends and children. We are called to live in goodness and justice as a response to our love of God. God loves us, but it is up to us to return his love.

So is there hope? Is humanity forever seperated from the fullness of God by sin? This is a question which I will attempt to answer in my next article.

--SMM


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www.geocities.com/athens/academy/1649

We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. --"Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.

From AA Big Book, Chapter 4: We Agnostics