A while back this topic was jumping with activity, questions, venting , from both meth addicts and those dealing with them . The recovery guide saw fit to add a new topic ....."families/partners of addicts" I can see why , it does give those who are not addicted , and/or know little to nothing of addiction or what an addict is going through a place to go for answers. However , since creating that topic, and the fact they moved many of the meth postings to it . activity in the meth site has dropped a lot. I became a regular here while still using meth. I came to the meth topic and read a topic where two wives were trying to deal with and understand their husband/meth addicts behaviour . I decided I might be able to enlighten them , after all ....I had 35 years experience!! The reply I received to my post was what gave me a new outlook on 35 years spent , and what seemingly was wasted on meth . I am not sure what it is I am wanting here, there is a huge help in the new topic. However I see confusion somewhat .... Yes the 12 step programs work ....but not for all, Yes inhouse treatments work wonders with many , but not all,, What bothers me is not all drugs affect the addicts and those around them in exactly the same way ... Heroin addiction and withdrawal is not methamphetamine addiction and withdrawal ..... every drug and addiction (not all addictions involve drugs , some are behavioural addictions) .. The co-dependency issues are all the same , But I have a nagging feeling that many come here and see all the posts of heroin use , , other drug use (they are all important) but they dont see their issue of meth and move on....we were seperated like addicts and non-addicts dont belong together .... it is just my opinion , I am not a proffessional therapist but addicts need the non-addicts dealing with them, and vice-versa. I think it is wrong when people usin meth feel they do not belong here, I came here for over a month while still using , and I felt like a hypocrite, yet I had relavent thoughts , and a great perspective eh?? I have said many times and I will still say again with much more resolve now. The exchange of information and experiences on all sides of meth and other drugs IS the best shot we have at winning the battle against addiction. In my opinion "families/partners of addicts" should be titled "co-dependency" and let the drug or addiction topic sights be the destination of choice . I have no problem , nor have others ,using or not, in advising someone to another topic . I have even refered people at other sights to come here to read up on some of the posts dealing with co-dependency ....I hope this made sense, being as how proof reading will more than likely cause me to not post it ----i WONT, with much respect and thanks .......AL
AL, i know anniesdad over on the coke board gave some really good insights to non addicts the other day. helped them see what it was like from some very personal sharing.
some of us "non-addicts" (whatever that is) have become a little reluctant to post on the other boards, because usually (1) this huge discussion starts about non addicts giving advice to addicts and how they are not in a postion to give advice,etc. and (2) worthy advice, if given by non-addicts might be good advice, but others immediately jump on the advice and criticize it because "it's not their way" or "I tried it and it didn't work,ect. -- and newbies, reading the discussion, might well have the tendency to turn away from an approach that may well work for them.
you've been around long enough to know what i am talking about. but i think the sharing of personal stories and trial and tribulations by all involved is very, very healthy and leads to understanding and healthy growth.
just my thoughts. you are an inspiration.
some of us "non-addicts" (whatever that is) have become a little reluctant to post on the other boards, because usually (1) this huge discussion starts about non addicts giving advice to addicts and how they are not in a postion to give advice,etc. and (2) worthy advice, if given by non-addicts might be good advice, but others immediately jump on the advice and criticize it because "it's not their way" or "I tried it and it didn't work,ect. -- and newbies, reading the discussion, might well have the tendency to turn away from an approach that may well work for them.
you've been around long enough to know what i am talking about. but i think the sharing of personal stories and trial and tribulations by all involved is very, very healthy and leads to understanding and healthy growth.
just my thoughts. you are an inspiration.
As you are also Bob , thank you much for the complement.... ... Just doing what I can to keep the flow of information and ease of finding help out here any way I can . I do know what you mean , however part of why I have stuck it out here at the guide is that in the meth board, although I expected quite a bit of that type of attitude , I never really felt it . I do know some people have somewhat resented what they felt was being judged . If I may be the devils advocate for a bit without offending you Bob, and please!! dont be offended by this . I have great respect for your posts . very much so, and I have referred many people from meth and other sites to read your posts . This is just my opinion , and I am sure many have strong feelings in every which direction .That is my reason for the open letter is to "stir the pot" so to speak. The AA 12 steps, at one time was the brain child of a man, then men, and it continued to grow . At the beginning it was for Alcoholics, Nowadays someone who is only an alcoholic is an ancient, practically extinct species. Before moving on , let me add in FAITH, RELIGION. Some people are fanatical in their faith, others are good followers of their chosen faith , then there are stragglers, lost sheep, the faithless, and last the non-believers. This is how I choose to categorize all religions and beliefs, even my own . A simple way to explain how I think all beliefs boiled down would be ( by boiling down I mean bringing them all to one common denominator, after all, addicts and those dealing with them come from all faiths and beliefs , if we are looking for a "fits all" answer , dont we need to find common ground??) that whichever means you find yourself it comes from within oneself, it is what is in ones heart that each one lives his life. When my daughters asked about Santa , and if he was real .... my answer was yes, he is!! . he isnt that guy wearing a red suit , he is the spirit in which Christmas, hannukah, and all religions celebrate themselves. I am not going to debate wether or not there is or isnt a God, regardless of belief it all boils down to what comes from inside us ... Dont all religions preach giving of oneself??? Even the muslim extremists are willing to give their lives to their God...as twisted as that is. Myself and many other addicts are "put off" by what comes across as self righteous indignation from strict 12 stepper's. My ex's parents are devout AA ....they live eat breath the 12 steps..... yet they look down their noses at everyone who doesnt believe their beliefs.I stopped going to church ever since I got too big for my parents to make me...why? to me it was a bunch of hypocrisy. yet to this day I am thankful for the many lessons I learned. I have much in my life I could be ashamed of , or feel as though I had wasted my life . But I try to learn from everyone in life . Some people of the highest intelligent ( this is my opinion, from my life experiences) people are ignorant because they "think" they know it all , and in having that attitude do not listen to those "less" than them . I know for a fact that the only true wise men are the ones who listen to all people . EVERYONE has something to contribute , part of why I do not like doctors is because I have met too many...and I do mean WAY to many that are so self rightous they cant see the forest for the trees .. Some AA, NA , etc, etc. groups are the same way ..... some are a good fit for some , others can make an addict worse.. My point being ( DAMN Bob, ya turned me into a babbling preacher!!!) ( ok, not you , I did it myself hahaha ) if some are turned away by some reason ...I dont think the solution is to just put everyone into like groups of thought , tsr was the person talking to smitty's wife when I first came here, would they have been posting in "families/partners" board when most are about heroin , methadone , I personally dont get into that board all that often cause I am trying to help myself by helping other addicts. I cannot express the change in myself in words when I got her reply as to helping explain the actions of her husband. . You are extremely good at writing down and explaining co-dependency issues , I guess that is what comes from greater education , ( geeez, I got sidetracked again ) to me .the solution isnt to treat the symptom by seperating each to his own ... the solution is to go after the cause , to allow acceptance of all , people can agree to disagree. Lord only knows if I was able to learn that , EVERYONE should be able to , I am bothered by users feeling as though they dont belong here, I am amazed at how little non-users know or understand addicts. the fact that both are seeking to find answers gives me great hope.... So here I am in my own way "stirring the pot of humanity" I have no doubt the answers are within US ALL!!! I hope I didnt ramble on too much , and I made some sense . I was enlightened last night by reading the personal diary of someone I care about. Still using , yet fighting the battle. Turning themself away from places like this because of being judged. I dont have the answer, I dont believe there is just one, so I am reaching out as best I know how .... and want to reach as many as I can
al, my friend, here's the text of a post i left over on the Families/Partners board. you are right, sometimes just one post by somebody whose struggling triggers an insight that starts the process or meets the addict where he or she are and leads to a more healthy life:
"to all -- while you're at it, check out the posts of "justonemore" on the methamphetamines board -- he has a lot to offer and is more than willing to help. you'll find a post there where he in essence offers it and laments the fact that posters here have left that board to come here."
"squirrel" is a big help with posts. -- and of course, August West, is one of the frankest posters around. Silent Partner -- a huge help."
______________
AL, on to other things, one of the "rubs" between addicts and non-addicts is the encouragement that non-addicts receive to detach from the addict -- which, early on and upon first exposure -- sounds really, really harsh, cruel, inhumane, etc. i't really like some feedback from active or inactive addicts on that point. and i think it would help other non-addcits as well.
on the "judging" part, a large number of my family members are alcoholics and addicts. no intentional judging here -- and hopefully not subconsciously either. i have to be frank, though, i have a hard time delivering myself totally to them -- emotionally, spiritually, etc, and can't open the checkbook to them for obvious reasons, -- but other than my own self-protection and self-preservation -- which i have learned has to be a priority -- there's no judgment of that sort from here. the creator created us all equal from that perspective. non-addicts have their own problems, too, both internally and from what they have to deal with externally. suffering is part of the human condition -- few escape it. but we're all blessed too -- life itself is the biggest blessing of all in my book.
we're all brothers and sisters on this planet in one way or another.
"to all -- while you're at it, check out the posts of "justonemore" on the methamphetamines board -- he has a lot to offer and is more than willing to help. you'll find a post there where he in essence offers it and laments the fact that posters here have left that board to come here."
"squirrel" is a big help with posts. -- and of course, August West, is one of the frankest posters around. Silent Partner -- a huge help."
______________
AL, on to other things, one of the "rubs" between addicts and non-addicts is the encouragement that non-addicts receive to detach from the addict -- which, early on and upon first exposure -- sounds really, really harsh, cruel, inhumane, etc. i't really like some feedback from active or inactive addicts on that point. and i think it would help other non-addcits as well.
on the "judging" part, a large number of my family members are alcoholics and addicts. no intentional judging here -- and hopefully not subconsciously either. i have to be frank, though, i have a hard time delivering myself totally to them -- emotionally, spiritually, etc, and can't open the checkbook to them for obvious reasons, -- but other than my own self-protection and self-preservation -- which i have learned has to be a priority -- there's no judgment of that sort from here. the creator created us all equal from that perspective. non-addicts have their own problems, too, both internally and from what they have to deal with externally. suffering is part of the human condition -- few escape it. but we're all blessed too -- life itself is the biggest blessing of all in my book.
we're all brothers and sisters on this planet in one way or another.
To be frank Bob, The hardest advice I have to give , is the one to leave an addict. I am an addict , 4 months clean , but was and always will have to consider myself one , no matter how long I avoid using . My strongest tool in my recovery , is my new mate. I feel so strange in telling others they need to leave the addict they care about . That is entirely opposite of what I am living . Meth use by myself and my daughters mother ended up in my getting a restraining order against her , in the meantime I got to know this woman , she had lost her mother the year before, her father just before I met her , and when I met her , her boyfriend was dealing with terminal cancer. Having flatlined myself as a teenager in a car accident I have very strong feelings about death , and life . I suppose my situation is different because I experienced having no one for a year as she became my link to reality . I do know that the thought of losing her is more important than any drug will, or could ever be . With knowing meth as well as I do , I know that to hang on can , and very likely will lead to the destruction of all involved . I honestly feel helpless giving co-dependant after co-dependant the same advice knowing it is my relationship keeping me off meth . Each of us ( damn it Bob ...ya got me preachin again!! ) has their own cross to bear . I help others carry it when I can , other times I refer them to you .... cool, now besides the Lindella and justonemore show at the meth site , we can have the Bob and AL show on the families /partners channel eh??? respectfully .... AL
Hey guys n gals,
In response to the addicts/non addicts debate I like to put...
If anyone close to me questions my drug use, tries to suggest anything, or even gets upset I have always jumped straight to my drugs defense and fiercely upholded the 'my choice-my life' b*llsh*t.
Even when I know I've got no arguement and I'm throwing 'it's my problem, not yours' (and soundin like i've really lost the plot) I'll stand by my 'principles' (HA).
The thing is I dont mean to and dont beleive it but I think deep down I didn't want to hurt anyone else and can't face/accept what I'm doing to others.
But reading other non addicts experiences is beginning to give me an insight into how I'm affecting other people without needing to defend my actions (I'm not directly hurting those posting, someone else is) and giving me the chance to deal with and accept what I've done so in the end I have the strength to admit and make up for the damage.
I'm blaming the phet for this cos I saw it all the time in my phet mate and know I'm doing the same but we develop this 'what about me tho' attitude. This revelation came when reaching for my notepad (on scary comedowns I used to write my wierd paranoid thoughts down so I didnt develop them-I call it thinkin too much) and found hubby had written 'you only see yourself'. It hit me like a truck but as I fell into that downward spiral I realised I was proving his point.
My emotions are very sensitive, I'm hanging by a thread and can only face anything emotional when I feel able to do so so I can understand the addicts 'how would you know you've never been there' defensive stand but please non-addicts dont leave us, keep posting with thoughts, feelings and advice because some of us are taking notice (however hard it is to accept) and quite frankly I'm prepared to try anything to get off/stay off (whoever discovered pennacillin didn't have to have an infection to cure-if you get what I mean!)
And lastly it gives me a happy, calm, warm feeling to know non drug users DO care and DO want to help when all I feel like is a low life, unwanted, unloved, dirty, gutter rat, phet freak.
Thanks peeps
Buffy x
In response to the addicts/non addicts debate I like to put...
If anyone close to me questions my drug use, tries to suggest anything, or even gets upset I have always jumped straight to my drugs defense and fiercely upholded the 'my choice-my life' b*llsh*t.
Even when I know I've got no arguement and I'm throwing 'it's my problem, not yours' (and soundin like i've really lost the plot) I'll stand by my 'principles' (HA).
The thing is I dont mean to and dont beleive it but I think deep down I didn't want to hurt anyone else and can't face/accept what I'm doing to others.
But reading other non addicts experiences is beginning to give me an insight into how I'm affecting other people without needing to defend my actions (I'm not directly hurting those posting, someone else is) and giving me the chance to deal with and accept what I've done so in the end I have the strength to admit and make up for the damage.
I'm blaming the phet for this cos I saw it all the time in my phet mate and know I'm doing the same but we develop this 'what about me tho' attitude. This revelation came when reaching for my notepad (on scary comedowns I used to write my wierd paranoid thoughts down so I didnt develop them-I call it thinkin too much) and found hubby had written 'you only see yourself'. It hit me like a truck but as I fell into that downward spiral I realised I was proving his point.
My emotions are very sensitive, I'm hanging by a thread and can only face anything emotional when I feel able to do so so I can understand the addicts 'how would you know you've never been there' defensive stand but please non-addicts dont leave us, keep posting with thoughts, feelings and advice because some of us are taking notice (however hard it is to accept) and quite frankly I'm prepared to try anything to get off/stay off (whoever discovered pennacillin didn't have to have an infection to cure-if you get what I mean!)
And lastly it gives me a happy, calm, warm feeling to know non drug users DO care and DO want to help when all I feel like is a low life, unwanted, unloved, dirty, gutter rat, phet freak.
Thanks peeps
Buffy x
thanks for your input , I cant say enough how important ( again..just my opinion , I do know years of using meth , and am just begining my learning on recovering ) I feel it is for us ALL to vent out our issues . and let's be brutally honest ....law enforcement isnt fixing the drug problem , they just do what they are told to do by lawmakers. medical people are on one side trying to understand, on the other ....causing many problems ...either by overprescribing, not prescribing, not listening , I got to get off my soapbox...we can blame and point fingers , bury our heads, or rage out against everything and everybody .. bottom line is the answer is within all of us, there is no single answer, but as different as each of us is from each other . for me....I was in here still using ...yet talking of my desire to quit ....I was called on it by someone ( yes Cathy, I am talking about you ....if you still read the meth board ) it was a legitimate question , which led me to sh@t or get off the pot. I just realized I have been not using for a long enough time, I am forgetting some of how it was . People using still have a lot to convey to others as long as there is a respect for everyones opinion . When people stop coming here because they aren't comfortable ......we all lose ,
I think community education and awareness may be the key to reducing a recovering addicts feeling of isolation. I know from friends and family members personal experiences that when a person chooses to kick a habit they generally have to kick their friends as well because they too were or are using. Going to groups like n.a. only increases the number of people they know who use and things start to spiral down. I just hope that everyone has at least one person who doesn't blame them and is there to listen with no questions, no pressure and lots of love and support.
If society had a better understanding of the mental affects that occur once someone chooses to quit, then there is a chance that more support would be provided.
I hope my thoughts have helped you feel less isolated.
If society had a better understanding of the mental affects that occur once someone chooses to quit, then there is a chance that more support would be provided.
I hope my thoughts have helped you feel less isolated.
Dunno if this is the right thread, but let me post about my relationship with an addict.
I was naive about the addiction, and should not have been. But, whenever I began a small project with my addict friend, I usually found myself being abandoned, as if I was some sort of straight arrow nut, available for pocket picking, or milking. But, one or two of these projects, were very important to the addict, (getting a car registered and smogged for example). I would do my part, then when it was the addict's turn, say to pick the car up or get the paperwork over to DMV, nothing, complete abandonment of the project as if we were never working together. Then, when confronted, the addict makes up some story you know is not true.
I never got this until recently, I usually assumed the addict thought me some jackass, and I left it at that.
Then, on my last try, I figured something out, the meth addict brain shuts down at the end of their "meth cycle" and they make some of the worst decisions one could make at that point. They go through a shut down of the brain, from the higher functions inward, until nothing but their lizzard brain is working, then they either re-medicate, or sleep. This realization of the meth cycle changed my whole outlook, as a non addict friend. First, the meth addict was only dealing with me during the "medicated" phase, we only talked or worked together a while after the meth addict had medicated and could appear rather normal. In fact, the addict deliberately worked with me only during those periods, as if dressing up for a business meeting.
This was my first big realization!
My second realization was that meth addicts are like vampires in that they must always stay close to a safe crash pad, for they know they will be in trouble if their brain shuts down at the wrong time. It is like musical chair, they need to get back to the crash pad when the music stops playing. This realization explained a lot to me about how they travel among friends.
Long term meth addicts have very sophisticated behavior patterns they have developed to run their addiction without getting into trouble and keeping things quiet. Is is the opposite of recovery, they actually develop behavior to keep their addiction going. They know about their meth cycles, and they plan activities around this cycle to keep things hidden and "safe".
Smokers nowadays do this (I am a smoker, but quitting). They plan activities in the short term such that they get a place and time to smoke.
This, I think, is one major key to being friends with a meth addict. Understand that they are on a cycle, and their day to day behavior must be governed by their meth cycle. If they didn't do this, they would long ago be in prison or dead.
It is very hard to penetrate this cycle. Their most personal and emotional time is during the period their brain is sutting down, and they guard this period from everyone's view.
I was naive about the addiction, and should not have been. But, whenever I began a small project with my addict friend, I usually found myself being abandoned, as if I was some sort of straight arrow nut, available for pocket picking, or milking. But, one or two of these projects, were very important to the addict, (getting a car registered and smogged for example). I would do my part, then when it was the addict's turn, say to pick the car up or get the paperwork over to DMV, nothing, complete abandonment of the project as if we were never working together. Then, when confronted, the addict makes up some story you know is not true.
I never got this until recently, I usually assumed the addict thought me some jackass, and I left it at that.
Then, on my last try, I figured something out, the meth addict brain shuts down at the end of their "meth cycle" and they make some of the worst decisions one could make at that point. They go through a shut down of the brain, from the higher functions inward, until nothing but their lizzard brain is working, then they either re-medicate, or sleep. This realization of the meth cycle changed my whole outlook, as a non addict friend. First, the meth addict was only dealing with me during the "medicated" phase, we only talked or worked together a while after the meth addict had medicated and could appear rather normal. In fact, the addict deliberately worked with me only during those periods, as if dressing up for a business meeting.
This was my first big realization!
My second realization was that meth addicts are like vampires in that they must always stay close to a safe crash pad, for they know they will be in trouble if their brain shuts down at the wrong time. It is like musical chair, they need to get back to the crash pad when the music stops playing. This realization explained a lot to me about how they travel among friends.
Long term meth addicts have very sophisticated behavior patterns they have developed to run their addiction without getting into trouble and keeping things quiet. Is is the opposite of recovery, they actually develop behavior to keep their addiction going. They know about their meth cycles, and they plan activities around this cycle to keep things hidden and "safe".
Smokers nowadays do this (I am a smoker, but quitting). They plan activities in the short term such that they get a place and time to smoke.
This, I think, is one major key to being friends with a meth addict. Understand that they are on a cycle, and their day to day behavior must be governed by their meth cycle. If they didn't do this, they would long ago be in prison or dead.
It is very hard to penetrate this cycle. Their most personal and emotional time is during the period their brain is sutting down, and they guard this period from everyone's view.
Let me expound a little, I hope my addict friend is not reading this.
My friend is a mother of a 13 year old boy that she does not have custody of. But she does visit the boy, or at least tries to. However, she is subject to drug testing on her visitation day, so she has learned to cease using two days before the visit. But, this has the opposite effect, for her brain starts to shut down as it is not medicated. On Mother's Day, I saw the saddest thing when she began to break down in tears, become irratable and viscious as she was preparing to visit her son. For the longest time I tried to understand why she was so broken apart on Mother's Day, she should have been happy to see her boy, he was certainly happy to see her.
The problem was that she was forced to visit her son on exactly the wrong part of her meth cycle, the part where her brain is shutting down. This has been the story throughout her efforts to increase visitation with the boy. At exactly the point when she has to deal with protective services, lawyers, and her child; she is forced to go off her "medication" and disrupt her cycle.
It is the transition phase that must be first overcome in recovery. The addict is required to change their social patterns to support recovery, but at the same time, this change disrupts their current med cycle. It is a dual burden, discarding the old meth driven social framework; and restarting a brand new recovery social framework.
Meth addiction, as terrible as it is, is a problem of self medication. Though destructive for a number of reasons, this med cycle is not unlike med cycles for other prescribed psychotropic drugs, just more extreme. But unlike prescribed drugs, there is no legitimate support for the med cycle; just the opposite, legitimate society intentionally disrupts their med cycle and makes their lives worse. Probably a good thing, but sometimes counterproductive.
My friend is a mother of a 13 year old boy that she does not have custody of. But she does visit the boy, or at least tries to. However, she is subject to drug testing on her visitation day, so she has learned to cease using two days before the visit. But, this has the opposite effect, for her brain starts to shut down as it is not medicated. On Mother's Day, I saw the saddest thing when she began to break down in tears, become irratable and viscious as she was preparing to visit her son. For the longest time I tried to understand why she was so broken apart on Mother's Day, she should have been happy to see her boy, he was certainly happy to see her.
The problem was that she was forced to visit her son on exactly the wrong part of her meth cycle, the part where her brain is shutting down. This has been the story throughout her efforts to increase visitation with the boy. At exactly the point when she has to deal with protective services, lawyers, and her child; she is forced to go off her "medication" and disrupt her cycle.
It is the transition phase that must be first overcome in recovery. The addict is required to change their social patterns to support recovery, but at the same time, this change disrupts their current med cycle. It is a dual burden, discarding the old meth driven social framework; and restarting a brand new recovery social framework.
Meth addiction, as terrible as it is, is a problem of self medication. Though destructive for a number of reasons, this med cycle is not unlike med cycles for other prescribed psychotropic drugs, just more extreme. But unlike prescribed drugs, there is no legitimate support for the med cycle; just the opposite, legitimate society intentionally disrupts their med cycle and makes their lives worse. Probably a good thing, but sometimes counterproductive.
I love this site so much. I think I have lbeen to every message board here. Reading and learning. I am a meth addict. I look for the strength of others to feed on. I have a co-dependent personality and I want to take care of everything else around me and focus on my needs later. I still do get high and try not to be a hypacrit? but I have learned alot along the way. I just want to help those crying out for help just as I have done before. I would like to stop but I haven't found the strength to do it. I have a family moral issue I am struggling with right now. I have a best friend whom is also my cousin and the whole family has blackballed him. All except me. He is a good guy and even with all he has done, inside there is a heart of gold. I am his only family and his only "girl" friend that he can tell anything too. I don't want anything to happen to him and I know I can't control that, but I don't want him to think I have walked away or given up on him like everyone else has. Any suggestions?? I could go on and on about everything but I think for all us addicts/non addicts out there is there really a way to do good without hurting the ones you love who think they are helping you?
Herbestfriend,
Thank you so much for your post.... I am lost for words. Your insight is remarkable, I honestly feel like I just "got" me., ya know. I really had no clue trying to figure myself out on this one and you just gave me the missing piece of the puzzle.
Hugs
charmed
Thank you so much for your post.... I am lost for words. Your insight is remarkable, I honestly feel like I just "got" me., ya know. I really had no clue trying to figure myself out on this one and you just gave me the missing piece of the puzzle.
Hugs
charmed
I agree, excellent insight and well put into words . thank you much for your post ..... AL
I'll be back momentarily to join in all these wonderful conversations,but I've GOT TO KNOW - how to you get your cute little picture by your name to MOVE? It's great - puts a smile on my face during some down time moods here lately. Thanks for the upper & let me know please!!
Wingnut, I think charmed 1 gave Al a tip, hmmm? I've wondered about that too. I hope you're feeling more positive now. L&S,,,,Linda
