to clancey on tough love,
I wish to clarify my therory for one moment of tough love... it some will take the time to examine my use of what some would call tough love it is simple ... here is what it is not....
It is not telling the persont they should be ashamed of being an addict...
It is not telling them to hide in a closet and not share there pain....
It is not letting them wallow in there grief of there failures and there loss...
It is not helping them find a justification for their using or a reason why they did..
It is not making them feel worse about themself than they do .. it may seem like it on the surface.. at first glance but it is not... it is a direct clear picture of reality...
Here is what it is..
It is education to tell them this is a disease that is often once started and they are under the influence of a drug... not within there control without help...
The guilt and shame has no place in recovery and will not help them....
It is helping them to see that they are not alone and that they can not hide..
If they hide there disease they will more than likely fail..
Failure and relapse is not the same thing ... Failure is the same as death in addiction..
Relapse is often time very predictable ....
Tough love is giving them a picture not clouded with fog .. but clear of reality..
It is not letting someone or helping someone find a reason to use or justification to use ...
Tough love often help the person take back some lost control in their life that the drugs took but they need a hard list of way to take back that control..
This at times may seem harsh... but some need this ... yes can people go over board... yes....but... too my unbridled messy .. whatever just feeds the addiction... it is giving they the sympathy... and no plan.... no way out...
I have never critized someone for being an addict... never... I have went out of my way to explain the disease concept.. the relieve a fellow addicts suffering the guilt and shame of that... and then showed them the way to pull themself out of it...
just my thoughts on tough love..
and one more thing... as far are your having 15 years... and being superior... i remember a post when you and somebody got into it where you accused someone of treating others of doing that exact thing that you just did.. what is up with that?..... any way.. you said you had some devine intervention from God that none of us got that took your cravings and stuff away... so what do yuou really know about being an addict and working a program and dealing with this disease everyday.... ?.... I dont believe that clean time alone can make someone superior to anybody else in recovery... as far as being more knowledgabe or maybe stronger in there program there are many factors that figure into it. not just time... and we all can learn from each other...
again just my two cents..
Teresa
Clancy didn't mean she is superior. She was giving an example on how some on this board acts when they have little time. You missed the point of her post.
Liz.....
Oh never mind. It's just not worth it.
Oh never mind. It's just not worth it.
Cowgirl,
Have a nice day. :o)
Have a nice day. :o)
teresa,
That's right, I really didn't mean superior! I hardly think that of myself, haha! Honestly I'm the farthest thing from an egomaniac. What I meant was sort of a joke...that if one person has 6 months and it gives them a "voice" then my voice must be a shout after 15 yrs. clean. See what I was trying to say.
As far as having a spiritual intervention, I did...and I never have worked a program, got me there....luckily God just took the desire from me and gave me a gift that gave me power over the drug! Otherwise I don't think I would be standing here today.
We totally agree on tough love by definition. I just don't agree with anyone using gang mentality or mean words, belittling them. I believe and TRY to live by 1st Corinthians 13....Love is patient, love is kind etc... faith, hope and Love.
I hate being mean and judgemental...and that is how I feel right now. I don't know how people can sleep when they continually use their idea of "tough love". I remember when I was considering getting myself clean, and all the people around me that were first in line to tell me what a bad person I was and how many people I hurt when I was using. That pain is still in my heart. I still feel it and hear the words. I will never do that to any new person willing to stick their neck out and take the heat to get clean. Never.
That is where I'm coming from. I do understand and agree with alot of what you had to say. So, basically I think we're on the same page.
Clancy
That's right, I really didn't mean superior! I hardly think that of myself, haha! Honestly I'm the farthest thing from an egomaniac. What I meant was sort of a joke...that if one person has 6 months and it gives them a "voice" then my voice must be a shout after 15 yrs. clean. See what I was trying to say.
As far as having a spiritual intervention, I did...and I never have worked a program, got me there....luckily God just took the desire from me and gave me a gift that gave me power over the drug! Otherwise I don't think I would be standing here today.
We totally agree on tough love by definition. I just don't agree with anyone using gang mentality or mean words, belittling them. I believe and TRY to live by 1st Corinthians 13....Love is patient, love is kind etc... faith, hope and Love.
I hate being mean and judgemental...and that is how I feel right now. I don't know how people can sleep when they continually use their idea of "tough love". I remember when I was considering getting myself clean, and all the people around me that were first in line to tell me what a bad person I was and how many people I hurt when I was using. That pain is still in my heart. I still feel it and hear the words. I will never do that to any new person willing to stick their neck out and take the heat to get clean. Never.
That is where I'm coming from. I do understand and agree with alot of what you had to say. So, basically I think we're on the same page.
Clancy
but dont you see... if everyone on this site was always saying you poor thing... and no one was showing them any of the stuff that is often what is hard to hear.. the advice and the proding that they need to get it... then they would all hide and never get out in the light of day... and get a program... forever hiding in their little rooms with a computer screen and say why oh why did this happen to me....
and ask questions about getting through withdrawl easier and stuff like that...
most of us aren like you... we didnt get any gift from above... at first I really resented the implication that we werent worthy but I see now that some may have a higher purpose... I have been asked to walk there the fire to show others that how they can too... I know the struggles... the heartache and the triumph... I know what happens work a program half a** you relapse and what it feels like to lose everything dear to them... so I share what works for me and others and how this is so simple anyone can do it...
I dont want someone to lose the battle because I was too busy patting there hand when they needed someone to push them up.... there are only a few on here a very few that are so rude as to breach over into the mean category.... The mix of people that use tough love and those that use the other so called 'easy' love is good and if you had one without the other this would not work well....
So you do your thing with your particular brand of love and I will do mine.... As much as I would like to I do refrain from say "I told you so" to those that keep relapsing by doing it there way after I or some other get told by those very people that we dont know what we are talking about or that we were being mean... boo hoo... so I guess I am not that mean... anyway..
Thank God for all of the ones that can do the coddling but you also have to give the same respect for those of us that do the other 'dirty' work so to speak...
I do ignore those I dont like or have personal beef with as I take cowgirls signature line to heart.. as well....
Tough love saved my life.. quite literally.
just my too cents..
Teresa
and ask questions about getting through withdrawl easier and stuff like that...
most of us aren like you... we didnt get any gift from above... at first I really resented the implication that we werent worthy but I see now that some may have a higher purpose... I have been asked to walk there the fire to show others that how they can too... I know the struggles... the heartache and the triumph... I know what happens work a program half a** you relapse and what it feels like to lose everything dear to them... so I share what works for me and others and how this is so simple anyone can do it...
I dont want someone to lose the battle because I was too busy patting there hand when they needed someone to push them up.... there are only a few on here a very few that are so rude as to breach over into the mean category.... The mix of people that use tough love and those that use the other so called 'easy' love is good and if you had one without the other this would not work well....
So you do your thing with your particular brand of love and I will do mine.... As much as I would like to I do refrain from say "I told you so" to those that keep relapsing by doing it there way after I or some other get told by those very people that we dont know what we are talking about or that we were being mean... boo hoo... so I guess I am not that mean... anyway..
Thank God for all of the ones that can do the coddling but you also have to give the same respect for those of us that do the other 'dirty' work so to speak...
I do ignore those I dont like or have personal beef with as I take cowgirls signature line to heart.. as well....
Tough love saved my life.. quite literally.
just my too cents..
Teresa
Teresa,
Again I agree. My ONLY thing that I feel differently about is the timing. At the very very first, I think everyone needs to be guided gently toward the light so to speak. Then...you get their attention and respect and they will be ready for the next step...the tough love program. I don't think people using and relapsing and failing and wanting to be babied is the way either...you're right, they will continue to fail. I am only referring to when they first open the door to ask for help...when they are so broken.
You're right too in the balance on the board. However, if it were me, and I had the choice of listening to someone that guided me toward the same end, who spoke to me with love and affection and someone that told me to get my butt off the pity potty or worse, I know which one I would listen to. Or even worse, I would say forget it...and just continue my path of destruction and use.
I was so blessed in the way that God took drugs from me. In His wisdom, He knew I could not do it the hard way, and just took it from me...as I'm sure many have prayed that prayer! I threw $2,000.00 worth of coke down the toilet and promised God that I would never use it again...it was after that act of faith that I received my blessing.
It was not 15 yrs ago, I was wrong it was 20 years ago...and I remember it as though it was yesterday. Even though I had been delivered from drugs, I had a whole life of people around me that I had to deal with...and it was not easy, my whole life had to change, all my "friends" changed. My life as I knew it was over. I had a brand new life, a new chance at a normal healthy, straight life. I was once again a great mother to my kids and a wife to my husband!!
So, we do agree on my things Teresa. Not worth fighting over the "little things" when we both have the same hope for the people that are suffering. We have both been there, in our own different ways. And both survived it. It is not pretty or easy, but we both did it!!! And that is what we are both trying to say to anyone that will listen! I just prefer to use a softer voice, that's all.
Take care...and I really don't think we are so very far off on our opinions!
Clancy
Again I agree. My ONLY thing that I feel differently about is the timing. At the very very first, I think everyone needs to be guided gently toward the light so to speak. Then...you get their attention and respect and they will be ready for the next step...the tough love program. I don't think people using and relapsing and failing and wanting to be babied is the way either...you're right, they will continue to fail. I am only referring to when they first open the door to ask for help...when they are so broken.
You're right too in the balance on the board. However, if it were me, and I had the choice of listening to someone that guided me toward the same end, who spoke to me with love and affection and someone that told me to get my butt off the pity potty or worse, I know which one I would listen to. Or even worse, I would say forget it...and just continue my path of destruction and use.
I was so blessed in the way that God took drugs from me. In His wisdom, He knew I could not do it the hard way, and just took it from me...as I'm sure many have prayed that prayer! I threw $2,000.00 worth of coke down the toilet and promised God that I would never use it again...it was after that act of faith that I received my blessing.
It was not 15 yrs ago, I was wrong it was 20 years ago...and I remember it as though it was yesterday. Even though I had been delivered from drugs, I had a whole life of people around me that I had to deal with...and it was not easy, my whole life had to change, all my "friends" changed. My life as I knew it was over. I had a brand new life, a new chance at a normal healthy, straight life. I was once again a great mother to my kids and a wife to my husband!!
So, we do agree on my things Teresa. Not worth fighting over the "little things" when we both have the same hope for the people that are suffering. We have both been there, in our own different ways. And both survived it. It is not pretty or easy, but we both did it!!! And that is what we are both trying to say to anyone that will listen! I just prefer to use a softer voice, that's all.
Take care...and I really don't think we are so very far off on our opinions!
Clancy
Hi Clancy.. i too was devinely delivered from crack-cocaine use! It was an awesome deliverence.. now i find myself years later addicted to vics? go figure.. but He is an awesome God and i am believing for a break through however He chooses to work it..
Dear Fear,
Isn't it an beautiful experience??? One that I will never want to forget, nor could I!! However, the enemy is always working his evil deeds to get us. He definately knows our "weaknesses" and there you have the reason you're now finding yourself addicted to vicodin. He is a very patient evil...I've heard the story over and over of the boiling of the frog. If you put a frog in boiling water he will immediately jump out and safe himself..but if you put him in cool comfortable water and slowly turn up the heat over time, he will eventually die from the boiling water! There is the story of many lives!!! So easy to be boiled slowly. The enemy seeks to kill and destroy, whatever means it takes.
So great to also hear a story on here of a deliverance like mine. We were VERY fortunate to have that happen. Unfortunately most have to take the really hard way. I really respect the people that do. Especially the ones that have connections a phone call away and yet, while in the middle of the most horrible part of withdrawl, find the strength to say no!! Now that takes courage!
I really do have the people suffering at heart. I have been there...and it hurts!
Thanks for sharing your story with me...that is awesome! God Bless!
Clancy
Isn't it an beautiful experience??? One that I will never want to forget, nor could I!! However, the enemy is always working his evil deeds to get us. He definately knows our "weaknesses" and there you have the reason you're now finding yourself addicted to vicodin. He is a very patient evil...I've heard the story over and over of the boiling of the frog. If you put a frog in boiling water he will immediately jump out and safe himself..but if you put him in cool comfortable water and slowly turn up the heat over time, he will eventually die from the boiling water! There is the story of many lives!!! So easy to be boiled slowly. The enemy seeks to kill and destroy, whatever means it takes.
So great to also hear a story on here of a deliverance like mine. We were VERY fortunate to have that happen. Unfortunately most have to take the really hard way. I really respect the people that do. Especially the ones that have connections a phone call away and yet, while in the middle of the most horrible part of withdrawl, find the strength to say no!! Now that takes courage!
I really do have the people suffering at heart. I have been there...and it hurts!
Thanks for sharing your story with me...that is awesome! God Bless!
Clancy
Let me tell you my experience with "tough love". My Mother was an addict (booze and then later Xanax) for 35 years. She was a tried and tue "AA" person. She "only" replasped about 25 times. We tried the tough love stuff. It didn't work. What worked was love love. Until a year ago, I never had a problem with anything (or at least I thought). I did take Xanax as perscribed, but I never abused it. I have since quit. And I did it CT. Never had a problem with booze. Never had even taken a pain pill. Now I too am caught in a vicious circle. After using "tough love" for 35 years, and it not working, I am a firm believer in what helps people in these situations is people showing their love, compasssion and tolerence. No, you certainly don't want to enable. But I'm 45 years old. 44 of them I was clean and sober pretty much. So, when someone wants to preach after being clean and sober for 30-60 days, I say STFU. I have 44 years. BFD on your 60 days and quit preaching. Stay to your program, don't judge people and don't think you are superior to anyone, because 60 days is nothing and we are all in a mess.
Danny,
Yep, LOVE NEVER FAILS! Thanks for telling us your experience w/ love vs. tough love!! As you know, I'm a FIRM believer in love/love...but that is NOT the most popular point of view on here. I did enjoy your editorials on the 30/60/90 days. However, I cannot be judgemental and will just hope that one day all will have the good fortune to see through the eyes of love! And still have the same end result!
Have a blessed Thanksgiving...great to talk with you!
Clancy
Yep, LOVE NEVER FAILS! Thanks for telling us your experience w/ love vs. tough love!! As you know, I'm a FIRM believer in love/love...but that is NOT the most popular point of view on here. I did enjoy your editorials on the 30/60/90 days. However, I cannot be judgemental and will just hope that one day all will have the good fortune to see through the eyes of love! And still have the same end result!
Have a blessed Thanksgiving...great to talk with you!
Clancy
I wasnt going to reply but then I thought I would.... first let me say that I have significant amount of clean time not that makes what I say more credible than someone else... it is just to preface it for you... I have 4 1/2 years.. be that as it may..
as far as your mom is concerned, I am glad to hear she finally got it and you are very fortunate... I on the other hand have not been so fortunate... My father continues to be an active alcoholic dispite my mothers best efforts at love love.. She refuses to let me or anyone else let him have any consequenses to his behavior... the consequences to his drinking have had a trickle down effect to everyone else around him... she refuse to show him any kind of tough love thus she enables... the only thing close to this was when he got his 2nd offences DUI and she let he sit in jail for more than the customary few hours.. at any rate... I wonder if he was given the opportunity to see or feel some of the consequences would he still be doing this to his family... I love my dad dearly but... I wonder if we are doing him any favors...oh but we are being ever so compassionate and oh soooo tolerate almost to adnausium and dont forget being kind at our own expense... yes this love love thing works wonders 100%...
I also wonder if we are talking about the same kind of tough love... I would suspect not in many instances but whos to say.... as I said to clancey... it takes both kinds... Tough love can be kind but firm .. it can be compassionate but unwavering and it can be tolerant but within limits and degrees...
as I have said before... we are all in the same boat called addiction just some of us as further in the process of having our life jackets on..
God Bless...
Teresa
as far as your mom is concerned, I am glad to hear she finally got it and you are very fortunate... I on the other hand have not been so fortunate... My father continues to be an active alcoholic dispite my mothers best efforts at love love.. She refuses to let me or anyone else let him have any consequenses to his behavior... the consequences to his drinking have had a trickle down effect to everyone else around him... she refuse to show him any kind of tough love thus she enables... the only thing close to this was when he got his 2nd offences DUI and she let he sit in jail for more than the customary few hours.. at any rate... I wonder if he was given the opportunity to see or feel some of the consequences would he still be doing this to his family... I love my dad dearly but... I wonder if we are doing him any favors...oh but we are being ever so compassionate and oh soooo tolerate almost to adnausium and dont forget being kind at our own expense... yes this love love thing works wonders 100%...
I also wonder if we are talking about the same kind of tough love... I would suspect not in many instances but whos to say.... as I said to clancey... it takes both kinds... Tough love can be kind but firm .. it can be compassionate but unwavering and it can be tolerant but within limits and degrees...
as I have said before... we are all in the same boat called addiction just some of us as further in the process of having our life jackets on..
God Bless...
Teresa
Whilst i agree with all of the above none of it is effective unless you know that person, we very often say things that we say with good intent but how do we know that we are not upsetting that person due to some thing that has happened to that person. How many times do we find out things about the people we think we know eh? and here we are trying to help others on a face value basis, if we are trying to help fellow addicts who we all know to be frigile, scared and anti basicaly full of mixed emotions then in order to help them i think my approach is a combination of both honesty and caring should i form a friendship with any one person, then i feel i get to know them well enough to aproach the tough love as some people will tll you im sure lol but at the end of the day i do relise im no psychologist and its not my place to be dishing out any kind of advice be it good bad or indifferent, unless i know that person i would never judge them or consider that i know best, i remember when i first joined the site i was so put off by some comments made that i nearly never got the help i deserved or needed, i appreciate that we are all different and approach things in different ways but there is no excuse for rudness or blatent belittling of a person addict or not. just my 2 pence worth being in UK lol jackie xxx
I think that in recovery, you guys are right about the soft love at first. But speaking for me, I DON'T NEED JUSTIFICATION OF WHY I CAN USE. In real life, everyone has an exuse to use. For me, it is death.
I feel that once a person is made aware, tough love is often the way to go. But there is a huge difference between tough love and belittlement like I have seen here. No addict needs sunshine blown up their asses, but before we go around slamming people, their needs to be an intelligent balance.
That is why sponsorship is often very important, it is crucial that you pick the right one. Moral supperiority over a new person is really pretty sick. What the hell ever happened to empathy??
Remember, new people are often not functioning at peak mental performance, anyway. Love and kindness, but not justification needs to be put in place.
I hope that I made sense.
I am not implicating anyone here. Good on you, Clancy. God did that for me with meth. Teresa, your tough love on the program is refreshing.
Everyone else...this is a battle that needs no drama. I know I have my demons to face. I am sure we all do. Lets all just try to practice a little empathy.
kerry
I feel that once a person is made aware, tough love is often the way to go. But there is a huge difference between tough love and belittlement like I have seen here. No addict needs sunshine blown up their asses, but before we go around slamming people, their needs to be an intelligent balance.
That is why sponsorship is often very important, it is crucial that you pick the right one. Moral supperiority over a new person is really pretty sick. What the hell ever happened to empathy??
Remember, new people are often not functioning at peak mental performance, anyway. Love and kindness, but not justification needs to be put in place.
I hope that I made sense.
I am not implicating anyone here. Good on you, Clancy. God did that for me with meth. Teresa, your tough love on the program is refreshing.
Everyone else...this is a battle that needs no drama. I know I have my demons to face. I am sure we all do. Lets all just try to practice a little empathy.
kerry
Well, I think that addicts sometimes do need to be pushed beyond thier comfort zone to approach addiction issues in a new way. I am not one for coddling an addict with platitudes, nor do I believe that we can be of much service to people when our style is totally repugnant to them. The answer, like much of life, requires that we walk a finer, more delicate line and avoid falling prey to wayward ideology.
I believe that it takes diplomacy, perspective, compassion, and experience to work with addicts in a manner that truly has a positive effect. I grew up in the South and I chaff at rudeness and insensitivity. Concealing these qualities beneath a veil of "tough love" does not change them. Again, if you sober up a horse thief, you get a sober horse thief. Stated differently, it is not only what you say, it is how you say it.
Any bull in a china shop can mutter a few truisms and pat himself on the back for proudly carrying the message and telling it like it is. It takes no skill to run rough shod over someone and then proudly annouce that you have spoken the truth, that you are right, and then to march off into the sunset smug in one's own self rigeousness. This is actually nothing more than another wrinkle in the old adage that alcoholics and addicts are like tornados that roar through the lives of others. It does not reflect any qualities that I admire or aspire to. Luckily, I have the steps to slowly exorcise these qualities from my own personality when I recognize them.
Real service work is quite a bit more complex. It defies analysis. It requires a fundamental alteration in one's spiritual composition, IMHO, and even then not one among us will get it right even half the time. All of us addicts view the world through a defective instrument and thus none of us has a lock on reality or truth. Moreover, unless we remain humble we are doomed to failure. Tough love rarely has much effect until a predicate relationship of trust and respect is in place. Even then, it should be measured out in teaspoons, not buckets.
I think there are two core issues that each of us can look at. The first issue regards our motive. Are we genuinely trying to help when we say something, or are we stroking our own ego or seeking to meet some other need or desire? In AA, it would require a 4th step at a minimum to be clear on one's motives.
Secondly, even if our motives our pure, we can not give away that which we do not have. The service work described in AA and NA literature takes place in the 12th step and occurs after "having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." This indicates that folks might want to give the first 11 steps a try before they cannonize themselves as recovey gurus.
While it is true that none of us has more than today, service work should be predicated on a personal journey through recovery and this certainly takes longer than a few days, weeks or months. This is not to say that we cannot be of service in the meantime, only that we need to remain teachable and to understand that we are here to learn as well as to serve.
At its core, the 12 step program is one of attraction, not promotion. Tough love when misapplied comes acrosss as the worst kind of promotion and is certainly enough to promote a very negative reaction to AA and NA. When in doubt, it is probably better to say less, rather than more, or so I am told.
August
I believe that it takes diplomacy, perspective, compassion, and experience to work with addicts in a manner that truly has a positive effect. I grew up in the South and I chaff at rudeness and insensitivity. Concealing these qualities beneath a veil of "tough love" does not change them. Again, if you sober up a horse thief, you get a sober horse thief. Stated differently, it is not only what you say, it is how you say it.
Any bull in a china shop can mutter a few truisms and pat himself on the back for proudly carrying the message and telling it like it is. It takes no skill to run rough shod over someone and then proudly annouce that you have spoken the truth, that you are right, and then to march off into the sunset smug in one's own self rigeousness. This is actually nothing more than another wrinkle in the old adage that alcoholics and addicts are like tornados that roar through the lives of others. It does not reflect any qualities that I admire or aspire to. Luckily, I have the steps to slowly exorcise these qualities from my own personality when I recognize them.
Real service work is quite a bit more complex. It defies analysis. It requires a fundamental alteration in one's spiritual composition, IMHO, and even then not one among us will get it right even half the time. All of us addicts view the world through a defective instrument and thus none of us has a lock on reality or truth. Moreover, unless we remain humble we are doomed to failure. Tough love rarely has much effect until a predicate relationship of trust and respect is in place. Even then, it should be measured out in teaspoons, not buckets.
I think there are two core issues that each of us can look at. The first issue regards our motive. Are we genuinely trying to help when we say something, or are we stroking our own ego or seeking to meet some other need or desire? In AA, it would require a 4th step at a minimum to be clear on one's motives.
Secondly, even if our motives our pure, we can not give away that which we do not have. The service work described in AA and NA literature takes place in the 12th step and occurs after "having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps." This indicates that folks might want to give the first 11 steps a try before they cannonize themselves as recovey gurus.
While it is true that none of us has more than today, service work should be predicated on a personal journey through recovery and this certainly takes longer than a few days, weeks or months. This is not to say that we cannot be of service in the meantime, only that we need to remain teachable and to understand that we are here to learn as well as to serve.
At its core, the 12 step program is one of attraction, not promotion. Tough love when misapplied comes acrosss as the worst kind of promotion and is certainly enough to promote a very negative reaction to AA and NA. When in doubt, it is probably better to say less, rather than more, or so I am told.
August
Hi,
My view is, a person with 2 days can help someone with one. Before step two is even taken, if someone asked me with one day sober how I got it, I'd say, I went to a meeting, listened and didn't pick up. Thats service work, does it get more involved as we grow in recovery? sure, but I keep it simple, when asked how I do it, I say what was said to me. It's not a complicated program for simple people, it's a simple program for complicated people. Don't analyize just do.
Thats my view anyway.
Take care.........................................God bless...................................Bob
My view is, a person with 2 days can help someone with one. Before step two is even taken, if someone asked me with one day sober how I got it, I'd say, I went to a meeting, listened and didn't pick up. Thats service work, does it get more involved as we grow in recovery? sure, but I keep it simple, when asked how I do it, I say what was said to me. It's not a complicated program for simple people, it's a simple program for complicated people. Don't analyize just do.
Thats my view anyway.
Take care.........................................God bless...................................Bob
I just want to say August is a voice of reason.
Well what could anyone add to that, I had just started typing a reponse to an earlier post when August provided us with a brilliant responce.
All I was going to say was that I felt it was still a question of definition of tough love and how it should be applied differently to different souls. Like Jackie said, or I think she implied, one should get to know the person first and where they are coming from before apply a formula. I for one responded well, eventualy, to a form of tough love mine came in the form of an ultimatum. My wife had put up with my drunken abusing lifestyle for the best part of this year. But she always promised to keep loving forever and cuddled me when I was swamped in self pity. My mother did the same and often visited and told me how pround of me she was and that I would pull through. Was I enjoying the attention? maybe in my worst moments. They both never gave me ultimatums and covered for me with lies and excuses when I was "ill". Then the proffesioals stepped in with a tough love approach. I had seen various coucellors and Dr's I had been thruogh treatments and promised to change. Well after relapsing I confessed how bad I had got. They instructed me to stop working straight away, even thuogh I never went on the job using, and told me that if I did not get into some sort of recovery plan and accept all the treatment they offered including time off work, they would have no other action but to report me to my proffesional body that I am a member of. That really woke me up. I think some in recovery say one has to get sober for oneself and no one else. I understand that but in a way I am doing it for myself because I have a selfish love of my family and job. Needless to say since I have been sober my wife is really happy but a bit hurt that I would not stop for her but when I was in danger of loosing my precious job I quit. Would people agree that an ultimatum is a form of tough love.
Thanks for listening hope it make sense exellent topic.
Paul
All I was going to say was that I felt it was still a question of definition of tough love and how it should be applied differently to different souls. Like Jackie said, or I think she implied, one should get to know the person first and where they are coming from before apply a formula. I for one responded well, eventualy, to a form of tough love mine came in the form of an ultimatum. My wife had put up with my drunken abusing lifestyle for the best part of this year. But she always promised to keep loving forever and cuddled me when I was swamped in self pity. My mother did the same and often visited and told me how pround of me she was and that I would pull through. Was I enjoying the attention? maybe in my worst moments. They both never gave me ultimatums and covered for me with lies and excuses when I was "ill". Then the proffesioals stepped in with a tough love approach. I had seen various coucellors and Dr's I had been thruogh treatments and promised to change. Well after relapsing I confessed how bad I had got. They instructed me to stop working straight away, even thuogh I never went on the job using, and told me that if I did not get into some sort of recovery plan and accept all the treatment they offered including time off work, they would have no other action but to report me to my proffesional body that I am a member of. That really woke me up. I think some in recovery say one has to get sober for oneself and no one else. I understand that but in a way I am doing it for myself because I have a selfish love of my family and job. Needless to say since I have been sober my wife is really happy but a bit hurt that I would not stop for her but when I was in danger of loosing my precious job I quit. Would people agree that an ultimatum is a form of tough love.
Thanks for listening hope it make sense exellent topic.
Paul
neon.
absolutely.......that is probably on of the best things that could have happened to you thus far maybe?.... that is sort of the point that everyone keeps dancing around...
I dont mean to say that tough love is about saying shame on you ... your a lousy husband or mom...or whatever.... and it is not about picking on them....
my point is that if everyone spent all their time trying to avoid w/d and then just said how it is ok not to talk to anyone about there problem or do a program ect..
What I am talking about here is saying 'hey Im glad that you decided to get this thing off your back.... Ive been there doing that.... here is how I did it... ' you wont want to hear this but....you got to burn your doctor bridges... tell your family... go to meetings ... tell on your disease... come out of the closet....ect...
they dont want to do the work .... some on hear are just afraid to say the words... let alone do the work.... when someone relapses its ok to say.. 'its hard and I know you are hurting... dont feel too bad... ' but then someone needs to say.... 'have you looked at what you could have done or what you didnt do to prevent this...?' This is not meant to rub their noses in it ... but if that were said on here.. oh my goodness someones head would role...
As for the rest .... August I agree in principle.... but some just keep dancing around the middle of the floor and never quite get into the thick of it... they just keep dancing.... all of the platitudes and flowery words dont mean a thing unless you are engaged in the real dance...some never engage... I dont think I have ever been mean spirited to a newcomer and I am not perfect....
My work in my program continues... I have been to two of the three places that we all will end up if we continue to use and dont work a program.... jails, institutions and death.... I was warned and had I had a dose of tough love that I am speaking of I could have avoided both of them... but alas I didnt so here I am...
I am glad this was for the most part a good honest debate... I have learn a couple of things .. I guess a good dose of tough love (sort of ) for me as well...
all I can say is my motive have been pure and I have always cared...
God Bless... take care....
Teresa
absolutely.......that is probably on of the best things that could have happened to you thus far maybe?.... that is sort of the point that everyone keeps dancing around...
I dont mean to say that tough love is about saying shame on you ... your a lousy husband or mom...or whatever.... and it is not about picking on them....
my point is that if everyone spent all their time trying to avoid w/d and then just said how it is ok not to talk to anyone about there problem or do a program ect..
What I am talking about here is saying 'hey Im glad that you decided to get this thing off your back.... Ive been there doing that.... here is how I did it... ' you wont want to hear this but....you got to burn your doctor bridges... tell your family... go to meetings ... tell on your disease... come out of the closet....ect...
they dont want to do the work .... some on hear are just afraid to say the words... let alone do the work.... when someone relapses its ok to say.. 'its hard and I know you are hurting... dont feel too bad... ' but then someone needs to say.... 'have you looked at what you could have done or what you didnt do to prevent this...?' This is not meant to rub their noses in it ... but if that were said on here.. oh my goodness someones head would role...
As for the rest .... August I agree in principle.... but some just keep dancing around the middle of the floor and never quite get into the thick of it... they just keep dancing.... all of the platitudes and flowery words dont mean a thing unless you are engaged in the real dance...some never engage... I dont think I have ever been mean spirited to a newcomer and I am not perfect....
My work in my program continues... I have been to two of the three places that we all will end up if we continue to use and dont work a program.... jails, institutions and death.... I was warned and had I had a dose of tough love that I am speaking of I could have avoided both of them... but alas I didnt so here I am...
I am glad this was for the most part a good honest debate... I have learn a couple of things .. I guess a good dose of tough love (sort of ) for me as well...
all I can say is my motive have been pure and I have always cared...
God Bless... take care....
Teresa
Hey Paul,
I agree an ultimadum is a form of tough love, it can come from people who love and know you. Even your doctor. He was the one watching and observing you. Can't come from people that don't know or love you. How then can tough love work? Also, Paul you stated when the people that used tough love seen you are doing well they told you how proud they are of you. I think it should be followed with kindness if tough love is given for the reason that you want to see this person make it. If that is the real intention of using tough love. I think Jackie really explained it well. You need to know the person first before starting off with a tough love approach. You don't know where they are at and should never go out of your way to be mean.
I think August really explained himself well also. So much good stuff in here. Clancy great job at explaining where you are coming from. You are a terrific person. Great asset to this board.
I agree an ultimadum is a form of tough love, it can come from people who love and know you. Even your doctor. He was the one watching and observing you. Can't come from people that don't know or love you. How then can tough love work? Also, Paul you stated when the people that used tough love seen you are doing well they told you how proud they are of you. I think it should be followed with kindness if tough love is given for the reason that you want to see this person make it. If that is the real intention of using tough love. I think Jackie really explained it well. You need to know the person first before starting off with a tough love approach. You don't know where they are at and should never go out of your way to be mean.
I think August really explained himself well also. So much good stuff in here. Clancy great job at explaining where you are coming from. You are a terrific person. Great asset to this board.