I heard a woman in a meeting the other day talking about sponsees that have gone out and asking how much help we are expected to give. What she said that really hit home was, "I am tired of reaching down to pull someone up. They are going to have to start to reach up for help instead of me reaching down." It made sense to me. I don't have a lot of faith in interventions, probably because they never worked on me. But I do believe that if someone wants help they will find it. It's said that AA/NA is a program of attraction, not promotion. I believe that if 12 steppers live their life according to the principles of AA/NA that is all the promotion that is needed. People still getting high that are out of control know where to go to find the help they need. At least here they do. So my questions are, how far are you willing to carry the still using addict/alcoholic? And how available is AA/NA where you live? AA has a saying...Carry the message, not the alcoholic. Do you follow this?
Happy Monday, everyone. I hope my fellow quitters are still not smoking.
Kat,,,,,please forgive me because I hope you realize just how highly I think of you.
12 stepping????The more I see the LESS it makes me want to be involed in that.Im lost right now...whos gonna pick me up?......Me thats who
12 stepping????The more I see the LESS it makes me want to be involed in that.Im lost right now...whos gonna pick me up?......Me thats who
I agree with you Kat...A person must be ready to change and want
to stop..You can't force change on someone..But they also need to
know that there are tools and there is a way should they decide they
have had enough...
I stayed in active addiction for so many years because I didn't hang
with other addicts and didn't know any other way to stop other than
to just quit, which always made me so damn sick that I just kept
taking them..It wasn't until I landed in here and started reading some
of the success stories that I realized I wasn't alone and there was a
way and I could do this...
Doug
to stop..You can't force change on someone..But they also need to
know that there are tools and there is a way should they decide they
have had enough...
I stayed in active addiction for so many years because I didn't hang
with other addicts and didn't know any other way to stop other than
to just quit, which always made me so damn sick that I just kept
taking them..It wasn't until I landed in here and started reading some
of the success stories that I realized I wasn't alone and there was a
way and I could do this...
Doug
Kat...two weeks ago at the service of my friend who passed...a woman said something similar to me.
She talked in terms of a ladder...we are all on the ladder in one place or another. No matter where you are on the ladder, there is someone always above and always below you.
She said if you keep your hand out....someone below will always reach up to grab it...and when you need help...someone above always has their hand out for you to reach up to.
It made perfect sense to me...we reach up to help lift ourselves...and we reach out to be available to those who need to reach up. Reaching out is very different from reaching down and pulling up. Does this make one ounce of sense???? It does to me, but I may not be illustrating it right!
Anyway, thanks for that post. I really believe that if you reach up...you will find a hand. I think it is the nature of the world. I love the story that Catherine (MeAgain) tells about calling hotlines to find support to keep taking pills due to her medical condition....and through that she found a way out. It is a perfect illustration of this!
Have a good week.
Sarah
She talked in terms of a ladder...we are all on the ladder in one place or another. No matter where you are on the ladder, there is someone always above and always below you.
She said if you keep your hand out....someone below will always reach up to grab it...and when you need help...someone above always has their hand out for you to reach up to.
It made perfect sense to me...we reach up to help lift ourselves...and we reach out to be available to those who need to reach up. Reaching out is very different from reaching down and pulling up. Does this make one ounce of sense???? It does to me, but I may not be illustrating it right!
Anyway, thanks for that post. I really believe that if you reach up...you will find a hand. I think it is the nature of the world. I love the story that Catherine (MeAgain) tells about calling hotlines to find support to keep taking pills due to her medical condition....and through that she found a way out. It is a perfect illustration of this!
Have a good week.
Sarah
I don't know, Brina. What is it you see? But you are right. No one is going to pick up up but you. People can guide you but you have to do the work yourself. If you are trying to use a few people's actions to turn you away from AA that's all right too. I'm not going to convince you to go to AA or to like AA. Everyone is entitled to think and act however they want as long as they are willing to pay the consequences. You've told me that you don't think AA is for you. I respect that. But to put down AA because you are fighting with someone in a 12 step program is wrong. I've told other people here that attacking someone's method of staying clean because you are arguing with that person is just plain wrong. Who knows who you are hurting because you are attacking someone's sobriety? We don't know who reads this board that never posts. The things written in anger here could quite possibly keep someone from AA/NA. If everyone would practice "taste you words before you spit them out" the world would be a better place, no? We are all human, not saints, and no one practices the principles of AA perfectly. No one.
Kat.Again PLEASE know Ive always had & always will have such high respect for you.Its not fighting (if you even call it that)with a 12 stepper.
Kat IM having a friggin hard time today,so hard I dont know how Im gonna pull it together & I just cannot deal with the pain Ive let others put on me.
I shouldnt even be on this post & Im sorry
Brina (& yes YOU Kat are a friend so Brina is something Im glad you chose to call me
Kat IM having a friggin hard time today,so hard I dont know how Im gonna pull it together & I just cannot deal with the pain Ive let others put on me.
I shouldnt even be on this post & Im sorry
Brina (& yes YOU Kat are a friend so Brina is something Im glad you chose to call me
Hiya kat great post but heres my take on what you said if someone as that sort of personality to help people then no matter what changes that person will hep ok so a rest might be needed but if its indoctarnation that makes that person a helper is it helpfull?. i quite agree that people need to help themslves but not all can, not all see what you see or mj sees or cg or anyone on here so to that person a hand is needed, its what happens after that that counts has humans we tend to take things way to personal if i try to help someone and fail then so be it what will be will be etc etc lol. jaxxx
Today, in my recovery, I cannot carry another alcoholic/addict...For me, I can reach out when a hand is extended and share what works for me...I can suggest AA/NA as a lifeline...I give out my phone number to anyone that needs to talk and encourage them to do so...I can attend meetings regularly and be there for the newcomers but I cannot do it for them....I cannot even do it alone for me and I don't have to do it alone, today I have my HP, whom I call God, and a network of people in my recovery, and an awesome 12step program that works if I work it...
You posted awhile back about allowing others to walk their paths and not to deprive them of their own journeys and I read that and realize, everyone is on their own path and not all paths continue to recovery but as long as I keep my HP, whom I call God, in the drivers seat and I turn my will & life over to him, have faith and don't pick up, I can do this one day at a time and if along the way, others want to follow, I will be there to extend the hand of AA....
Thanks Kat...
Stacey
You posted awhile back about allowing others to walk their paths and not to deprive them of their own journeys and I read that and realize, everyone is on their own path and not all paths continue to recovery but as long as I keep my HP, whom I call God, in the drivers seat and I turn my will & life over to him, have faith and don't pick up, I can do this one day at a time and if along the way, others want to follow, I will be there to extend the hand of AA....
Thanks Kat...
Stacey
We are taught in AA it's ok to give someone food, but we don't give them money for food. Chances are an active alkie is going to buy booze before food, right? We are also taught a sponsor is not a banker, but we lend money with the idea that we are giving it away and not expect it to be returned. We are taught we aren't landlords but will help someone find a place to live. I guess it's like that thing about teaching a man to fish instead of giving him a fish. Sometimes I want to do more than I am comfortable with. So I have to check my motives...do I want that person to like me, am I worried about how others see me if I don't do whatever...things like that. It all seems to be another process. We have to learn limitations and boundaries. I know I didn't have too many when I got sober. Now I learn on a regular basis just how far to go with helping someone. Of course a lot depends on the individual. I have a friend I love to death, known for a few years, that I will not lend anything to because she takes forever to give it back. I learned through trial and error. I have also learned if I lend a newcomer something I don't expect to see it again. Just a few more of life's lessons I've learned along the way. I used to get resentments if someone didn't A) be extremely grateful for whatever I did for them B) do something in return and C)return loans. I don't do that any more. Life's too short for resentments.
Kat:
I agree with you. I have a housekeeper who is a crack addict....she comes in and out of our lives. I know a lot of you would say, you have a crack addict in your home...but you know what, she has never taken a thing from me. As a matter of fact, when she does the laundry there is always change on the cabinet that she pulled out of a pair of jeans.
I don't pay Rosie either. I will pay her light bill, or take her to the grocery...but I will never give her money. She knows it, and accepts it. Consequently she shows up in my life when she is hungry or been without power. I cannot help but try to help her...she is just like me with different life circumstances.
I used to have a great deal of expectations when I helped someone too. That was a very painful lesson for me to learn. Expectations are so detrimental to everything. It was one of the hardest things for me to realize, that we cannot expect anything of anyone...we can only expect of ourselves. I have often said, resentments are expectations unmet. It is always work not to expect...but it gets easier the more you practice! Consequently, I rarely feel resentment anymore and that is such a relief. Resentment is just one of the worst feelings...that and jealousy. YUCK!
I noticed when I was using, that some of these valuable life lessons I had learned before I ever started to use, had just left me. Honestly, being high everyday really let's that "base" thinking take over. It was so easy to slip backwards into juvenile thought patterns and pettiness came so easy to me. I could see it, and I would think, I am just so busy, I don't have time to work on all this stuff...that is why it is happening.
I never attributed it to the fact that I was stoned everyday. The unclear mind is a dangerous mind. It seems once I got clean, the ability to think clearly and more with my heart than my head is returning exponentially. I guess that is that AA concept of serenity. So many things that have troubled me the last four years are not even things I can relate to anymore.
I thank God for my sobriety. It is the single most important thing I have ever done in my life.
S.
I agree with you. I have a housekeeper who is a crack addict....she comes in and out of our lives. I know a lot of you would say, you have a crack addict in your home...but you know what, she has never taken a thing from me. As a matter of fact, when she does the laundry there is always change on the cabinet that she pulled out of a pair of jeans.
I don't pay Rosie either. I will pay her light bill, or take her to the grocery...but I will never give her money. She knows it, and accepts it. Consequently she shows up in my life when she is hungry or been without power. I cannot help but try to help her...she is just like me with different life circumstances.
I used to have a great deal of expectations when I helped someone too. That was a very painful lesson for me to learn. Expectations are so detrimental to everything. It was one of the hardest things for me to realize, that we cannot expect anything of anyone...we can only expect of ourselves. I have often said, resentments are expectations unmet. It is always work not to expect...but it gets easier the more you practice! Consequently, I rarely feel resentment anymore and that is such a relief. Resentment is just one of the worst feelings...that and jealousy. YUCK!
I noticed when I was using, that some of these valuable life lessons I had learned before I ever started to use, had just left me. Honestly, being high everyday really let's that "base" thinking take over. It was so easy to slip backwards into juvenile thought patterns and pettiness came so easy to me. I could see it, and I would think, I am just so busy, I don't have time to work on all this stuff...that is why it is happening.
I never attributed it to the fact that I was stoned everyday. The unclear mind is a dangerous mind. It seems once I got clean, the ability to think clearly and more with my heart than my head is returning exponentially. I guess that is that AA concept of serenity. So many things that have troubled me the last four years are not even things I can relate to anymore.
I thank God for my sobriety. It is the single most important thing I have ever done in my life.
S.
Boundries are part of my recovery and staying healthy...it is difficult for me to set them up but I am working very hard on my "people pleasing" character defect and realizing where I need to be and what others think about me doesn't matter....Today, it doesn't matter because I know God loves me and as long as I do his will, I can be patient, loving, kind and compassionate without having to sacrafice my self....Teresa taught me early on, if you are going to do something nice for someone, question why I am doing it...am I doing it because I want to or am I doing it because I am expecting something back...(sometimes I forget and go back to the old sick ways and wallow for awhile in it but thankfully, I know when I am doing this, go to a meeting, pray to God, use my tools and get back on track.)
Oh, and expectations.....only lead to resentements which in turn make me sick inside....Today, I pray to God, go to meetings and recite the serenity prayer quite often...It is simple....
xoxo
Oh, and expectations.....only lead to resentements which in turn make me sick inside....Today, I pray to God, go to meetings and recite the serenity prayer quite often...It is simple....
xoxo
Excellent thread Kat and I think one that goes hand in hand with this board. Just how much effort should we expend in trying to help someone who obviously doesn't want help. There are so many addicts here who are here for the drama, not for the recovery. It's the ones that start helping themselves and doing things outside of this board, that get clean. The rest is all hogwash.
So just how much energy do you put into someone? It's hard because you hope that you're helping someone and you don't want to stop just becuase you think they might be playing a game.
So just how much energy do you put into someone? It's hard because you hope that you're helping someone and you don't want to stop just becuase you think they might be playing a game.
Hmmmm...here for the drama...Now who could that be?...
Doug
Doug
This is a recovery thread and it would be greatly appreciated if left that way...please do not deter this thread from it's intended purposes as I for one am benefiting from this recovery topic...You can take the jabs somewhere else, please....
Lisa,
For me, part of recovery and keeping myself healthy and being able to grow spiritually is learning when enough is enough...we can only hold the hand out, and it is up to them to seek the help....My HP, God is the most important thing in my recovery, I am second and everything else falls in line after that....I cannot make anybody clean or sober and even thinking I could is just my sick ego talking....until somebody is done, completely defeated and can admit they are powerless over drugs/alcohol, and reach out for help and are willing to go to any lengths to stay sober, there is nothing you or I or even God can do.....sometimes, we need to learn to be still and wait and if/when they reach out and ask for help, then we can share what works for us....
xoxo
Stacey
Lisa,
For me, part of recovery and keeping myself healthy and being able to grow spiritually is learning when enough is enough...we can only hold the hand out, and it is up to them to seek the help....My HP, God is the most important thing in my recovery, I am second and everything else falls in line after that....I cannot make anybody clean or sober and even thinking I could is just my sick ego talking....until somebody is done, completely defeated and can admit they are powerless over drugs/alcohol, and reach out for help and are willing to go to any lengths to stay sober, there is nothing you or I or even God can do.....sometimes, we need to learn to be still and wait and if/when they reach out and ask for help, then we can share what works for us....
xoxo
Stacey
I see your point Stacey and I agree. It really was a rhetorical question but I do understand what you mean.
It's what we do with our sponsees as well. We can only offer so much. The work is up to them and in the end, we can't feel responsible if they fail. We've done our best to attract.
Hope you're having a good morning.
It's what we do with our sponsees as well. We can only offer so much. The work is up to them and in the end, we can't feel responsible if they fail. We've done our best to attract.
Hope you're having a good morning.
Before I starting using, for about 8 years, I had immersed myself in yoga. Yoga sort of saved my life...I was an emotional wreck. Having a failed marriage with an abusive man...(had a lot to learn about co-dependency) and then so many lost babies, not to mention broke, tired, and scared to death....I was just about gone! I got into yoga with a wonderful teacher and it just moved so much crap out of my thinking.
It really was a tremendous experience for me. I forgot how to gossip...I forgot to be insecure, I remembered how to be generous and unafraid. I felt great! Then, somehow, I found my way into pain pill abuse. At first when I used, I would not do any yoga...felt guilty about it, plus I could not calm my mind for the life of me. Then, slowly I started to use daily which meant, no yoga daily...and before you know it...I am back to petty, weakminded thought processes. Fear, jealousy, insecurity, inadequacy, feeling "disrespected", resentment, all that base emotional stuff became a part of my daily thought pattern.
I saw it, I just thought it was because I wasn't practicing my meditation that it was so shallow in my head. Well, that was maybe a part of it at the time...but really, now that I have some clean time...(and I am not practising yoga/meditation daily...yet!), I realize that those emotions were not so much a result of not doing my yoga, but as a result of taking narcotics. Now that I have been away from narcotics long enough, I see myself beginning to become more subtle mentally. My thoughts tend to err on the side of generosity, and love than to be stuck in jealousy, fear and mistrust. Narcotics, in particular for me, opiates...really made my mind sick.
Now, I know simply "quitting" the ingesting of the dope is not enough...we must be vigilant in our work to expand. But, honestly, it has been a revelation to me to witness that our nature, true nature, when uninvolved in poison, is to create peace and thrive in kindness as much as possible. What a relief.
It really was a tremendous experience for me. I forgot how to gossip...I forgot to be insecure, I remembered how to be generous and unafraid. I felt great! Then, somehow, I found my way into pain pill abuse. At first when I used, I would not do any yoga...felt guilty about it, plus I could not calm my mind for the life of me. Then, slowly I started to use daily which meant, no yoga daily...and before you know it...I am back to petty, weakminded thought processes. Fear, jealousy, insecurity, inadequacy, feeling "disrespected", resentment, all that base emotional stuff became a part of my daily thought pattern.
I saw it, I just thought it was because I wasn't practicing my meditation that it was so shallow in my head. Well, that was maybe a part of it at the time...but really, now that I have some clean time...(and I am not practising yoga/meditation daily...yet!), I realize that those emotions were not so much a result of not doing my yoga, but as a result of taking narcotics. Now that I have been away from narcotics long enough, I see myself beginning to become more subtle mentally. My thoughts tend to err on the side of generosity, and love than to be stuck in jealousy, fear and mistrust. Narcotics, in particular for me, opiates...really made my mind sick.
Now, I know simply "quitting" the ingesting of the dope is not enough...we must be vigilant in our work to expand. But, honestly, it has been a revelation to me to witness that our nature, true nature, when uninvolved in poison, is to create peace and thrive in kindness as much as possible. What a relief.
Sarah...
You are a miracle and thank you for sharing yourself with me....
I love reading your posts and take something out of each one of them....
xoxo
Stacey
You are a miracle and thank you for sharing yourself with me....
I love reading your posts and take something out of each one of them....
xoxo
Stacey
posted by notfeelingclever
Well thought out and written, very helpful for me. I have seen some posts here where some have said that the addicts around them were better on the drugs, heck,heard that even from some addicts. That they were more friendly, more energy, more...whatever. Who were these addicts? They sure weren't me and I am glad, just one less rationalization to continue using. Also, I have found that when addicts say that they were doing OK on the drugs, if you asked the people around them, you often get a different interpretation....
Also like the part of doing more than not using drugs. I consider that a no-brainer. I was already very sick when I started the drugs. What well adjusted person becomes an addict? Uh...I would like to meet such people...
But the last part about the "true nature" of people all I will say is...you are far more charitable about people than I......
Oh...and as for your screen name here, I am sure when you quit the drugs you were not feeling clever at that point, and it is dangerous to think one is very clever (very often). But perhaps, as a suggestion based on one of your previous posts, your screen name could have been...
not as clever as I thought I was
| QUOTE |
Narcotics, in particular for me, opiates...really made my mind sick. Now, I know simply "quitting" the ingesting of the dope is not enough...we must be vigilant in our work to expand. But, honestly, it has been a revelation to me to witness thatour nature, true nature, when uninvolved in poison, is to create peace and thrive in kindness as much as possible. What a relief. |
Well thought out and written, very helpful for me. I have seen some posts here where some have said that the addicts around them were better on the drugs, heck,heard that even from some addicts. That they were more friendly, more energy, more...whatever. Who were these addicts? They sure weren't me and I am glad, just one less rationalization to continue using. Also, I have found that when addicts say that they were doing OK on the drugs, if you asked the people around them, you often get a different interpretation....
Also like the part of doing more than not using drugs. I consider that a no-brainer. I was already very sick when I started the drugs. What well adjusted person becomes an addict? Uh...I would like to meet such people...
But the last part about the "true nature" of people all I will say is...you are far more charitable about people than I......
Oh...and as for your screen name here, I am sure when you quit the drugs you were not feeling clever at that point, and it is dangerous to think one is very clever (very often). But perhaps, as a suggestion based on one of your previous posts, your screen name could have been...
not as clever as I thought I was
Or, as clever as it gets.....
how about clever enough to ask for help!
neverclever
everclever
severclever
leverclever
helluvacleva
sorry....just playing around.
gotta go......everyone have a good one!
sarah
neverclever
everclever
severclever
leverclever
helluvacleva
sorry....just playing around.
gotta go......everyone have a good one!
sarah
