Something I've noticed. The hand-wringing, confusion, wailing and gnashing of teeth has gone from my life. Someone once said, "Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
Once I decided to let MY higher power take things over and not snatch them back, my life has become far less chaotic, drama-filled, and petty. I was listening in homegroup of a newcomer who had been consumed with stress and drama in his/her life due, in part, to ______________ (fill in the blank).
The Program of AA is truly a miracle.
Thank you SKG for emphasizing this! You are exactly right! At twenty days...i still have lots of drama, mostly self-imposed. I trust that through the program and continuous sobriety my life will become less chaotic & the wailing will become minimal...
Thanks for reminding me of this important gift/promise that further sobriety will provide.
In spirit,
Zipper
Thanks for reminding me of this important gift/promise that further sobriety will provide.
In spirit,
Zipper
hmm You got me thinking skg . Maybe I need to work on step 3 a little more before going on to step 4.I sure am still confused so maybe that is why I am so afraid of step 4 I haven"t really given up MY will yet.Yep think I might go back and work on #3 a little more.God bless and be safe
Hey skq, good post.
Pirate, sounds like good thinking. The steps work because although they're not a prescription, they're set out in a way and a sequence that makes really good sense.
It's difficult for any human being to look honestly at their mistakes, moral failings and "character defects"....Step 1 acknowledges we haven't found the key to happiness (to put it mildly) and are unlikely (again putting it mildly!) to find it using our current thinking and way of being. Step 2 recognises the possibility of help from beyond our current ways of feeling, thinking and behaving. In fact, it goes way beyond that, it says "came to BELIEVE".... and Step 3 is a genuine, heartfelt DECISION to place our Will and our lives in the hands of our Higher Power.....
And if you think of it like throwing yourself backwards, blindfolded, into the arms of your friends...then you just know that if you don't truly BELIEVE your friends are there and are going to catch you, you just ain't going to make the decision and actually DO it.....
If you don't have genuine FAITH in that Higher Power, Step 4 is going to feel like a fearful thing......it seems many people do a half-hearted step 4, almost like dipping a toe in the water to see what happens.....this is a bit like "snatching our stuff back" before our HP has had a chance to do the work....so maybe having Faith in a HP is itself an important part of the process.... making it feel safe.....more than that....MAKING it safe. If you have Faith in your heart and mind and soul there is simply no space left for fear.
My own experience was that I wanted health so much, wanted to live a good life so much, wanted to do the loving thing so much...but I was powerless ......yet still I fought and fought and fought, because I "knew" that if "I" couldn't win, ME, my capable, clever, god-like self, all was lost....because there was no-one else to do it, was there.......and then, in deep emotional pain and despair, tears streaming down my face I genuinely admitted my powerlessness from the very core of my being, admitted that my family was going to be destroyed and the woman I loved was going to drink herself to death. I was ready to die in that moment..... and yet I STILL could not bring myself to believe in Him.....and so then days and weeks later, 35 years after I turned my back on God, when all was lost and I was in free fall into an abyss He simply kicked down the door, pushed me against the wall and held me up. He wouldn't let me fall, pirate, He just wouldn't. I can describe any number of everyday miracles that He simply kept pushing in my face for days and weeks, challenging me not to believe, daring me to deny the first-hand experience of His presence in my life, until one day I said out loud, laughing (because He's a joker) "Ok, ok, It's alright, I don't need to see anymore..." and as I turned my gaze from what had made me laugh I saw another miracle....just for me pirate, just four birds in a flypast that meant nothing to anyone but me and Him....
Keep your good heart and mind open pirate....only God knows what He wants for us, but if we listen, He finds ways to let us know.
Good luck, have fun.
Pirate, sounds like good thinking. The steps work because although they're not a prescription, they're set out in a way and a sequence that makes really good sense.
It's difficult for any human being to look honestly at their mistakes, moral failings and "character defects"....Step 1 acknowledges we haven't found the key to happiness (to put it mildly) and are unlikely (again putting it mildly!) to find it using our current thinking and way of being. Step 2 recognises the possibility of help from beyond our current ways of feeling, thinking and behaving. In fact, it goes way beyond that, it says "came to BELIEVE".... and Step 3 is a genuine, heartfelt DECISION to place our Will and our lives in the hands of our Higher Power.....
And if you think of it like throwing yourself backwards, blindfolded, into the arms of your friends...then you just know that if you don't truly BELIEVE your friends are there and are going to catch you, you just ain't going to make the decision and actually DO it.....
If you don't have genuine FAITH in that Higher Power, Step 4 is going to feel like a fearful thing......it seems many people do a half-hearted step 4, almost like dipping a toe in the water to see what happens.....this is a bit like "snatching our stuff back" before our HP has had a chance to do the work....so maybe having Faith in a HP is itself an important part of the process.... making it feel safe.....more than that....MAKING it safe. If you have Faith in your heart and mind and soul there is simply no space left for fear.
My own experience was that I wanted health so much, wanted to live a good life so much, wanted to do the loving thing so much...but I was powerless ......yet still I fought and fought and fought, because I "knew" that if "I" couldn't win, ME, my capable, clever, god-like self, all was lost....because there was no-one else to do it, was there.......and then, in deep emotional pain and despair, tears streaming down my face I genuinely admitted my powerlessness from the very core of my being, admitted that my family was going to be destroyed and the woman I loved was going to drink herself to death. I was ready to die in that moment..... and yet I STILL could not bring myself to believe in Him.....and so then days and weeks later, 35 years after I turned my back on God, when all was lost and I was in free fall into an abyss He simply kicked down the door, pushed me against the wall and held me up. He wouldn't let me fall, pirate, He just wouldn't. I can describe any number of everyday miracles that He simply kept pushing in my face for days and weeks, challenging me not to believe, daring me to deny the first-hand experience of His presence in my life, until one day I said out loud, laughing (because He's a joker) "Ok, ok, It's alright, I don't need to see anymore..." and as I turned my gaze from what had made me laugh I saw another miracle....just for me pirate, just four birds in a flypast that meant nothing to anyone but me and Him....
Keep your good heart and mind open pirate....only God knows what He wants for us, but if we listen, He finds ways to let us know.
Good luck, have fun.
Until an alcoholic actually works the steps (they're in order for a reason) there is no way to understand the transformation. None.
Thank you martin I think you said what I have been feeling. I believe in God that was never an issue with me. It's trusting him I guess that I am having the problem with. I like the way you refer to the blind fold scenario.it made me think of how much I trust God and I guess when it came right down to it I didn't trust him as much as I thought I did. So yea I need work on that for sure. I knew I wasn't ready to take the 4th step and until I am, there is not much point in doing it just to test the water as you say. It's true I want the freedom I want the happiness, I want it all, but I realize now it's not going to come about by me rushing things. I need to have a strong ,solid foundation if I am going to become the person I want to be.It has been quite a learning experience for me because I thought once I gave up drinking all would be perfect in my world. Boy was I ever WRONG on that one lol. I thought all my problems would just magically disappear. No magic wand came my way I tell you that. Oh sure life has improved tremendously but I am still the sick lost soul that I was before, only now I am a sober sick lost soul.I have a lot of healing to do and I intend to hang in there and do what it takes to get a REAL life.Thank you for your words of wisdom. I really appreciate them. God bless and be safe .
Skg Thank you again for the advice on the steps.I believe you when you say they are in order for a reason. I have no reason to disbelieve you. You have been been always honest and upfront with me and I have always learned from your advice. Sometimes if might have 'ruffled my feathers ' because I still have them (lol) but I value your opinion and your advice..God bless and be safe
Good post SKG....I was amazed when it finally dawned on me that the chaos and drama was going on around me but I no longer was a part of it, in fact, most days when I am spiritually fit, I distance myself from it and no matter what, the peace & serenity is within.
Pirate,
I say this with love and compassion and it's not meant to hurt your feelings, not at all but you are just like me, an alcoholic. Fear of the 4th step is normal for any alcoholic, in fact, I've met a lot of alcoholics and I don't remember one of them sharing that they were excited or overly anxious to do their 4th step. I didn't wait for faith and I didn't wait until I felt safe, in fact, those feelings didn't come until I went through steps 4 & 5. We (us alcoholics) tend to blow sh*t way out of proportion. It's a simple process. For me, Fear dominated my entire life but I didn't "see" this until I did my 4th step. You need to put the fear aside and walk through this. And when you start to feel fearful, just do it anyways. I could make excuses until the day I die why I couldn't do something but that's all they are is excuses, in fact, that's how I lived my life both drunk and dry and I was miserable, lost, lonely and afraid until I worked the steps and found the freedom from myself and in it's place I now have a HP, God who is right by my side. Willingness is the key. Pray for willingness and it will come. I can look back now and realize that it was my disease, it was the alcoholism that was kicking and screaming that I not go ahead with the 4th step because you see, if I stay sick, if I keep secrets, if I keep resentments, if I don't look at me and my part, then my disease stands a real good chance of getting me back into active state. I asked questions, I had help from fellow alcoholics and I did the 4th step despite the fear. It is simple, just list your resentments at first, that's all. I tend to think some people, like myself, thought it was a bare all confession to all my sins and I'd be struck dead if anyone ever knew. By the time I was through the 4th step, I was amazed. It wasn't about finding out "how bad I was" it was about finding out how I reacted and how I was a part of things and by seeing it on paper, I then could recognize the behaviors that kept me sick for so many years and work on changing them. It's that simple. I no longer have to drink or drug to keep sh*t buried deep within me and with that freedom, I actually have found forgiveness, love and acceptance of who I am today.
It's in your hands now, Pirate. Only you can take the actions necessary to go forward and reap the promises but I'm not one to sugar coat it and tell you it's okay to let fear run your life. Fear is my disease, God is the faith that keeps fear away and sometimes that means just walking through the fear to find the faith. Another thing I was told early on is, either I'm working on my recovery or I'm working on my relapse, my choice.
Peace,
Stacey
Pirate,
I say this with love and compassion and it's not meant to hurt your feelings, not at all but you are just like me, an alcoholic. Fear of the 4th step is normal for any alcoholic, in fact, I've met a lot of alcoholics and I don't remember one of them sharing that they were excited or overly anxious to do their 4th step. I didn't wait for faith and I didn't wait until I felt safe, in fact, those feelings didn't come until I went through steps 4 & 5. We (us alcoholics) tend to blow sh*t way out of proportion. It's a simple process. For me, Fear dominated my entire life but I didn't "see" this until I did my 4th step. You need to put the fear aside and walk through this. And when you start to feel fearful, just do it anyways. I could make excuses until the day I die why I couldn't do something but that's all they are is excuses, in fact, that's how I lived my life both drunk and dry and I was miserable, lost, lonely and afraid until I worked the steps and found the freedom from myself and in it's place I now have a HP, God who is right by my side. Willingness is the key. Pray for willingness and it will come. I can look back now and realize that it was my disease, it was the alcoholism that was kicking and screaming that I not go ahead with the 4th step because you see, if I stay sick, if I keep secrets, if I keep resentments, if I don't look at me and my part, then my disease stands a real good chance of getting me back into active state. I asked questions, I had help from fellow alcoholics and I did the 4th step despite the fear. It is simple, just list your resentments at first, that's all. I tend to think some people, like myself, thought it was a bare all confession to all my sins and I'd be struck dead if anyone ever knew. By the time I was through the 4th step, I was amazed. It wasn't about finding out "how bad I was" it was about finding out how I reacted and how I was a part of things and by seeing it on paper, I then could recognize the behaviors that kept me sick for so many years and work on changing them. It's that simple. I no longer have to drink or drug to keep sh*t buried deep within me and with that freedom, I actually have found forgiveness, love and acceptance of who I am today.
It's in your hands now, Pirate. Only you can take the actions necessary to go forward and reap the promises but I'm not one to sugar coat it and tell you it's okay to let fear run your life. Fear is my disease, God is the faith that keeps fear away and sometimes that means just walking through the fear to find the faith. Another thing I was told early on is, either I'm working on my recovery or I'm working on my relapse, my choice.
Peace,
Stacey
Is it just me or does anyone else have a sense of deja vue? lol
Hey pirate, we all want you to do step 4.....'cos we're all such good examples of working our own programmes.....lol
And just what is it you are trying to say, Martin?
And just what is it you are trying to say, Martin?
Hi 12 stepper, I edited my earlier post just as you were responding to it in case it was misunderstood, precisely because I - belatedly, sadly - remembered that I have no control over how people react.
And to answer your question, it's about control.
Everyone wants pirate to do the 4th step. I don't see anyone arguing against it. Some people think pirate is best placed to decide when the timing is right, or perhaps I should say some of us think pirate's HP is best placed to let pirate know the right time....others appear to think that they know what's best for pirate, or that their HP knows best for pirate....and I think in every 12 step programme we're supposed to rely on our OWN HP, rather than someone else's.....I mean, isn't that kinda the point of the programme? I recognise that I might be mistaken.
As for me, I recognise that I'm getting over-involved in someone else's recovery, probably to avoid the feelings of anxiety and near-terror I'm feeling at my current life circumstances, none of which are objectively terrifying, but which trigger deep childhood losses.
I hope that clarifies sufficiently. If in doubt, please trust me, the lol's were friendly. But again, I should be more careful. Just because I feel like laughing at my own folly it doesn't mean everyone else will take it the same way.
Be well and happy.
And to answer your question, it's about control.
Everyone wants pirate to do the 4th step. I don't see anyone arguing against it. Some people think pirate is best placed to decide when the timing is right, or perhaps I should say some of us think pirate's HP is best placed to let pirate know the right time....others appear to think that they know what's best for pirate, or that their HP knows best for pirate....and I think in every 12 step programme we're supposed to rely on our OWN HP, rather than someone else's.....I mean, isn't that kinda the point of the programme? I recognise that I might be mistaken.
As for me, I recognise that I'm getting over-involved in someone else's recovery, probably to avoid the feelings of anxiety and near-terror I'm feeling at my current life circumstances, none of which are objectively terrifying, but which trigger deep childhood losses.
I hope that clarifies sufficiently. If in doubt, please trust me, the lol's were friendly. But again, I should be more careful. Just because I feel like laughing at my own folly it doesn't mean everyone else will take it the same way.
Be well and happy.
I don't know, Martin. I'm just sharing my experiences as an alcoholic. I can relate a lot to what Pirate is feeling and going through right now. I am Pirate and I had all those fears and it took other alcoholics (thank you, 12Stepper) to help me get through things and to keep me accountable, to help me learn to help myself, to love me enough to call me on my bullsh*t and help me to look at myself and to nudge me when I became stuck or complacent.
I earned my chair in Alcoholics Anonymous and it is my pleasure to give away what was so freely given to me. How other's take it is upon them but when a question is asked or discussed and I have experience in it, I share what worked for me. One thing I have learned is I don't trust nor rely on "my thinking". God speaks through others to me and every once in awhile, I will get a thought through my head that isn't mine, and I know it's God but I'm not to that point in my recovery to trust my thinking nor are most of my thoughts God conscious yet. My best thinking kept me drunk and loaded for many years so now I trust in others.
Martin,
Do you attend Al-anon? Just curious as I've noticed you've said you've been to quite a few AA meetings as a guest, just wondering if you've worked the Steps in Al-anon, if that's where your experience comes from....
Enjoy your day...
Stacey
I earned my chair in Alcoholics Anonymous and it is my pleasure to give away what was so freely given to me. How other's take it is upon them but when a question is asked or discussed and I have experience in it, I share what worked for me. One thing I have learned is I don't trust nor rely on "my thinking". God speaks through others to me and every once in awhile, I will get a thought through my head that isn't mine, and I know it's God but I'm not to that point in my recovery to trust my thinking nor are most of my thoughts God conscious yet. My best thinking kept me drunk and loaded for many years so now I trust in others.
Martin,
Do you attend Al-anon? Just curious as I've noticed you've said you've been to quite a few AA meetings as a guest, just wondering if you've worked the Steps in Al-anon, if that's where your experience comes from....
Enjoy your day...
Stacey
Martin, I would think that if someone in AA asks questions about AA of other AAers, then those AAers should answer the way they were taught to answer. I would also think that non AAers that have not worked the steps might not know how to answer other than to give their opinion. We are answering from experience and what worked for us. You are answering from an outsiders point of view. I'm hoping pirate knows the difference. What worked for us can work for pirate. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but don't be upset when we don't agree with it. We are working the program the way we were taught and it's working for us. We are all sober today and we are happily sober. Why? Because we worked the steps the way our sponsors taught us which we freely pass on to another alcoholic when they ask.
Hi Stacey,
I guess I just trust the programme. People share, our HP decides what we need to take on board and we go with it. The long-standing recovering alcoholics I meet recognise that no-one (I nearly capitalised that) makes genuine progress when their hearts aren't in it....you're ready when you're ready.....but I guess attitudes vary from group to group....
my understanding........before even walking through the doors, you REALLY have to want it.....right? Who's doing the thinking then? If you say your HP and not 'stinking thinking', how do you tell the difference? From a feeling? (For some), from the outcome? Well the outcome of "just doing it" isn't uniformly successful, is it? People have posted in the other thread that doing step 4 when they weren't ready was a disaster for them. Doesn't their experience matter? Everyone is different. Alcoholics aren't all the same....listen for the similarities yes, but if everyone was the same the programme and the rooms and the success rates would be a lot different, wouldn't they....there WOULD be a timetable, wouldn't there......so how is a person to decide when they are ready? Why not trust their HP....why not? Who am I, or anyone else, to think I should PERSUADE someone to follow MY path, MY timescale, rather than the one their HP has decided for them.....if we have faith, isn't it true that IF they get sobriety for life as a result or IF they walk out for another year's research and development into the effects of alcohol it is their HP's Will for them? In EITHER case.
So you see, what I think isn't relevant, other than as a screen for pirate to project what her HP wants her to take away....and the same goes for anyone else in life, here or elsewhere.....and the same goes for whether I'm suffering from alcoholism as an alcoholic or as someone with co-dependent issues or am addicted to other drugs or work or politics or sport or rock and roll or am just bloody nosy and noisy......if we have faith we might believe that some thing ANYONE says might have a useful message for someone listening, no? Our HP decides, not us....
We don't matter, pirate's HP will decide....and trying to persuade someone to adopt any timetable other than the one they are being led to take by their HP is kinda missing the point, in my humble opinion.
In summary - how much faith in our HP do we have if we believe it/He/She doesn't DECIDE whether someone is ready or not and doesn't make that choice for him/her? How the heck do WE know what is going on?
I thought I was encouraging pirate to follow what her heart and HP were telling her. Others maybe feel her thoughts are stinking thinking. No-one except pirate is ever going to know, so maybe we should all just let her decide. Which I think I saw her post elsewhere that she had...hehehehe...and my original post in here was simply encouraging her to follow her intuition that she needs to strengthen her faith....is ANYONE here qualified to TELL her that's not her HP calling?
Certainly not me.
BUT I am over-involved here........I wanted to answer your questions because they are fair and open....but I want out of this debate.....it's not the place and
Apologies to pirate.
Happy to chat about these ideas and the other perspective in another thread if someone wants to start one...it's all good and it all APPLIES.....we take what we like....
I guess I just trust the programme. People share, our HP decides what we need to take on board and we go with it. The long-standing recovering alcoholics I meet recognise that no-one (I nearly capitalised that) makes genuine progress when their hearts aren't in it....you're ready when you're ready.....but I guess attitudes vary from group to group....
my understanding........before even walking through the doors, you REALLY have to want it.....right? Who's doing the thinking then? If you say your HP and not 'stinking thinking', how do you tell the difference? From a feeling? (For some), from the outcome? Well the outcome of "just doing it" isn't uniformly successful, is it? People have posted in the other thread that doing step 4 when they weren't ready was a disaster for them. Doesn't their experience matter? Everyone is different. Alcoholics aren't all the same....listen for the similarities yes, but if everyone was the same the programme and the rooms and the success rates would be a lot different, wouldn't they....there WOULD be a timetable, wouldn't there......so how is a person to decide when they are ready? Why not trust their HP....why not? Who am I, or anyone else, to think I should PERSUADE someone to follow MY path, MY timescale, rather than the one their HP has decided for them.....if we have faith, isn't it true that IF they get sobriety for life as a result or IF they walk out for another year's research and development into the effects of alcohol it is their HP's Will for them? In EITHER case.
So you see, what I think isn't relevant, other than as a screen for pirate to project what her HP wants her to take away....and the same goes for anyone else in life, here or elsewhere.....and the same goes for whether I'm suffering from alcoholism as an alcoholic or as someone with co-dependent issues or am addicted to other drugs or work or politics or sport or rock and roll or am just bloody nosy and noisy......if we have faith we might believe that some thing ANYONE says might have a useful message for someone listening, no? Our HP decides, not us....
We don't matter, pirate's HP will decide....and trying to persuade someone to adopt any timetable other than the one they are being led to take by their HP is kinda missing the point, in my humble opinion.
In summary - how much faith in our HP do we have if we believe it/He/She doesn't DECIDE whether someone is ready or not and doesn't make that choice for him/her? How the heck do WE know what is going on?
I thought I was encouraging pirate to follow what her heart and HP were telling her. Others maybe feel her thoughts are stinking thinking. No-one except pirate is ever going to know, so maybe we should all just let her decide. Which I think I saw her post elsewhere that she had...hehehehe...and my original post in here was simply encouraging her to follow her intuition that she needs to strengthen her faith....is ANYONE here qualified to TELL her that's not her HP calling?
Certainly not me.
BUT I am over-involved here........I wanted to answer your questions because they are fair and open....but I want out of this debate.....it's not the place and
Apologies to pirate.
Happy to chat about these ideas and the other perspective in another thread if someone wants to start one...it's all good and it all APPLIES.....we take what we like....
It's just you, Martin. No offense, but you really don't understand and you won't understand and you're not expected to understand. There's a reason that AA has over 160,000 groups around the world, there's a reason that most of folks that don't stick with The Program of AA go back out, there's a reason that the majority of recovery programs have fashioned themselves after that of AA. Because it works if WE work it. The transformation is real. The results are real. The success is undeniable. AlAnons can't help, psychologists and psychiatrists fail miserably, and rehab has an 80% fail rate.
Arrghhh...another post!
I'll respond 12 stepper because you make reasonable points. I haven't been upset by anything and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.......
It's all just opinions, 12 stepper....something that worked for you might not work for pirate. There were recovering alcoholics in the other thread who advised respecting the resistence rather than walking through it so you really don't have to look very far for a variety of perspectives and I suspect (although don't know) that the prevailing wisdom in one group might differ somewhat to that in others. In the main, I'm passing on the experience of recovering alcoholics I've spoken to and heard share over the course of the past year. I also speak regularly with someone who sponsors many people, exploring my own relationship with alcohol after having reached the conclusion that I'm the luckiest alcoholic in the world....by God's grace and nothing else I'm not physically dependent on alcohol nor, I have decided, am I ever going to be.
And God sits beside me, too, doesn't He? Much to my astonishment! Perhaps He might speak to others through me sometimes? Is that not possible whether I'm an alcoholic or not? Just a thought.
I know it is important that someone considering recovery and striving for it has the love and support of people who have been through it....but it is also true that recovering alcoholics have experience of THEIR OWN lives, no other....if what worked for you worked for everyone the success rate would be 100% and you'd be able to set out a timetable....
Like everyone else, I say what I'm moved to say....if it's not useful for anyone no-one's HP will lead them to use it. True for all of us mere human beings. That's my faith anyway.
Having said all that, I'll say again that I'm getting over-involved. I've offered my thoughts and pirate made a decision....that's why I made a silly joke about deja vue. Trust the process. Good luck pirate!
Moving on here.
I'll respond 12 stepper because you make reasonable points. I haven't been upset by anything and I'm sorry if I gave that impression.......
It's all just opinions, 12 stepper....something that worked for you might not work for pirate. There were recovering alcoholics in the other thread who advised respecting the resistence rather than walking through it so you really don't have to look very far for a variety of perspectives and I suspect (although don't know) that the prevailing wisdom in one group might differ somewhat to that in others. In the main, I'm passing on the experience of recovering alcoholics I've spoken to and heard share over the course of the past year. I also speak regularly with someone who sponsors many people, exploring my own relationship with alcohol after having reached the conclusion that I'm the luckiest alcoholic in the world....by God's grace and nothing else I'm not physically dependent on alcohol nor, I have decided, am I ever going to be.
And God sits beside me, too, doesn't He? Much to my astonishment! Perhaps He might speak to others through me sometimes? Is that not possible whether I'm an alcoholic or not? Just a thought.
I know it is important that someone considering recovery and striving for it has the love and support of people who have been through it....but it is also true that recovering alcoholics have experience of THEIR OWN lives, no other....if what worked for you worked for everyone the success rate would be 100% and you'd be able to set out a timetable....
Like everyone else, I say what I'm moved to say....if it's not useful for anyone no-one's HP will lead them to use it. True for all of us mere human beings. That's my faith anyway.
Having said all that, I'll say again that I'm getting over-involved. I've offered my thoughts and pirate made a decision....that's why I made a silly joke about deja vue. Trust the process. Good luck pirate!
Moving on here.
| QUOTE |
| there WOULD be a timetable, wouldn't there......so how is a person to decide when they are ready? |
It's all in the Big Book...timetable and all and since my sponsor has the experience, I trusted her and others to go through the steps. I trusted the Big Book since millions have gotten sober and stayed sober from following the book. I was also told, going through ALL the steps would lead me to my HP, whom I call God. Yes, I had a God before I started the steps but it wasn't until I was through the steps, that the blind faith and trust came....
Sorry to hijack your thread, SKG...you know I love you though and wish all those out there still suffering the peace and serenity that each one of us should live and experience....
| QUOTE |
| It's all just opinions, 12 stepper....something that worked for you might not work for pirate. |
xoxo
Stacey
Hi skq.....again the posts keep popping up hehehe
Why would I be offended? No worries. I think I've said all I want to say. This board isn't about you or me or even pirate. It's a gift that enables people to post stuff their HP/God may or may not want posted and enables other people's HP/God to decide if there's some useful stuff in it for someone else. I can't say I agree that God moves through alcoholics or any other group of people more often than anyone else, but that might not be what you meant.....
I am powerless over people, places and things......and I hand my Will and my life over.....I'm certainly not going to tell anyone else what to do with their lives to achieve sobriety.....unlike a recovering alcoholic, I can't tell them what worked for ME...but then you can't TELL them what will work for THEM, either...
THAT'S the programme, not me talking, or at least it is where I come from....maybe that's God's plan, requisite diversity, enabling diverse people to find their own path....how about that.
Why would I be offended? No worries. I think I've said all I want to say. This board isn't about you or me or even pirate. It's a gift that enables people to post stuff their HP/God may or may not want posted and enables other people's HP/God to decide if there's some useful stuff in it for someone else. I can't say I agree that God moves through alcoholics or any other group of people more often than anyone else, but that might not be what you meant.....
I am powerless over people, places and things......and I hand my Will and my life over.....I'm certainly not going to tell anyone else what to do with their lives to achieve sobriety.....unlike a recovering alcoholic, I can't tell them what worked for ME...but then you can't TELL them what will work for THEM, either...
THAT'S the programme, not me talking, or at least it is where I come from....maybe that's God's plan, requisite diversity, enabling diverse people to find their own path....how about that.
Ok, 24gordon, last post.....I don't want this to go on anymore....I've written plenty about this all being God's work and trusting Him and if that doesn't do it for ya I'm not going to convince you....
Other people from AA have posted in the other thread saying that doing the 4th step before they were ready was a disaster for them.
Everyone is unique and no-one except that person's HP knows what is best for them in LIFE.......
I'll hand it over. If anyone's posted in the meantime please don't be offended that I'm not responding here. Have a nice day/evening. I'm out.
Other people from AA have posted in the other thread saying that doing the 4th step before they were ready was a disaster for them.
Everyone is unique and no-one except that person's HP knows what is best for them in LIFE.......
I'll hand it over. If anyone's posted in the meantime please don't be offended that I'm not responding here. Have a nice day/evening. I'm out.
Martin
you've written a lot about steps and the program and your thoughts on them on various threads.
I'm curious, because I haven't seen where you've mentioned it (though I do tend to skim sometimes so I could easily have missed it). Are you a member of al-anon yourself - not AA, but Al-anon? Have you done the program and steps with a sponsor in al-anon?
I'm curious about where you're getting your thoughts and information from that is all.
also, to address one point you raised - sorry can't remember your exact words, but about having to be ready/willing when you first walk in the doors. Well no I don't think that's true. Many many people go to AA who aren't ready orwilling. for some it takes for others it doesn't. You make it sound like everyone who goes to AA is ready to get sober, but its not nearly so black and white.
SKG - I'm doing a fair bit of wailing at the moment and I'm coming to see that its born out of my insecurities.
Idgie.
you've written a lot about steps and the program and your thoughts on them on various threads.
I'm curious, because I haven't seen where you've mentioned it (though I do tend to skim sometimes so I could easily have missed it). Are you a member of al-anon yourself - not AA, but Al-anon? Have you done the program and steps with a sponsor in al-anon?
I'm curious about where you're getting your thoughts and information from that is all.
also, to address one point you raised - sorry can't remember your exact words, but about having to be ready/willing when you first walk in the doors. Well no I don't think that's true. Many many people go to AA who aren't ready orwilling. for some it takes for others it doesn't. You make it sound like everyone who goes to AA is ready to get sober, but its not nearly so black and white.
SKG - I'm doing a fair bit of wailing at the moment and I'm coming to see that its born out of my insecurities.
Idgie.
