Ok, I just finished reading the heroin diaries by nikki sikk. All thru out the book he talks about the not believing in god or a h/p. Finally in the end when he gets clean he now totally believes in god and/ or a h/p and is all into the 12 steps.
I don't believe in god, I didn't grow up in a religious family. We went to church until I was about 9 but stopped when my parents split up. I struggle like hell with the h/p thing, I have no problem with the 12 step program but how do you work it with out this part? it just seems like you can't get clean unless you have this big life changing experience and believe in these things. Why can't I be like that, how come it seems like this is the only way besides sub. And meth (which are not an option for me) what the F is wrong with me? I feel like I'm really F'ed up in the head. I'm really mad at myself. I try to have an open mind, I'm all for new things, but I just feel like I don't believe in sh#t. I try to force myself which doesn't work cause its fake and not from the heart. Why is this the only way? I don't even know why I became addicted to these pills? There was a time in my life (not even that long ago-like back in 2002) when I had vikes or percs due to surgery or dental stuff and I didn't even take them and threw them away cause they were in the medicine cabinet so long they expired. Now I can't pass a CVS with out thinking about them. I quit drinking without believing in a h/p.
I don't know, I feel like I just can't win. I know its not easy but I don't know how to do this other then "white knuckling" it? I wish I could be a part of something and fit in somewhere. I feel like I don't even fit in here. I don't feel"unique" and I relate to a lot of stories on here but.....I don't know? I have changed a lot since I joined back in 2005 and learned a lot but I still feel like a loner and wonder if I am to stubborn to learn and follow the steps and believe in god. Does anyone here feel like this? Would anyone admit to feeling as stupid and worthless as I do?
I'm trying, I'm really trying. I read a bunch of books to learn about addiction, I've been honest with my family about the crazyness that is my life.......
Lynn, I come from a family that is steeped in a religion that makes no sense to me. Didn't then, doesn't now.
I used to say that I was an agnostic, until I realized that it was impossible to be that angry at something I did not believe in. I still do not do well with organized religion and if anyone would have told me that I have believe in this god or that god before I got sober I would tell them exactly where they could put their god. Angry? Me? Nah.
I finally ran out of options. For me it came down to a simple choice. Get with the Program or die. They told me not to worry about the God thing for now. They told me to keep coming back and that if I came with an open mind, I would be contacted.
When I was ready, I raised my hand and talked about it some. I was told that my HP could be anything of my choosing. It could be a tree, it could be a rock band, it could anything that I was willing to believe was stronger than me. I really did not get this, but nobody put any pressure on me. When I was ready, I began to come around.
No two people get sober in exactly the same way and that is one of the reasons that AA works for so many people. The Steps are suggestions. I have a friend who goes to AA who is an atheist. The God he believes in is G-ood O-rderly D-irection. IIt works for him, and that is all that matters.
I hope some of this helps. The Eric Clapton book I mentioned talks a little bit about this. The Big Book is also helpful if you are at a point where you are ready to get into that a little bit.
God, er I mean "good" luck, Lynn. :-) Keep asking the right questions and you will get the answers you need to stay sober.
Sincerely,
August
I used to say that I was an agnostic, until I realized that it was impossible to be that angry at something I did not believe in. I still do not do well with organized religion and if anyone would have told me that I have believe in this god or that god before I got sober I would tell them exactly where they could put their god. Angry? Me? Nah.
I finally ran out of options. For me it came down to a simple choice. Get with the Program or die. They told me not to worry about the God thing for now. They told me to keep coming back and that if I came with an open mind, I would be contacted.
When I was ready, I raised my hand and talked about it some. I was told that my HP could be anything of my choosing. It could be a tree, it could be a rock band, it could anything that I was willing to believe was stronger than me. I really did not get this, but nobody put any pressure on me. When I was ready, I began to come around.
No two people get sober in exactly the same way and that is one of the reasons that AA works for so many people. The Steps are suggestions. I have a friend who goes to AA who is an atheist. The God he believes in is G-ood O-rderly D-irection. IIt works for him, and that is all that matters.
I hope some of this helps. The Eric Clapton book I mentioned talks a little bit about this. The Big Book is also helpful if you are at a point where you are ready to get into that a little bit.
God, er I mean "good" luck, Lynn. :-) Keep asking the right questions and you will get the answers you need to stay sober.
Sincerely,
August
August,Thanks for being a friend today, I really need it. I just went to the library and they were already closed. Guess they were only open till 3. Ill look for the books on Monday.
Lynn-I just saw this thread.Believe me,you are not the only one who feels that way.My ex-sponsor who has been clean over 9 years is an antheist.He doesn't even do the Lords Prayer or maybe he just mumbles something.Step two and three were really a ballbuster for him.What he had to do was substitue the power of the group as his HP.
Step 3 was even worse.He finally had to make the decision that the group conciousness had to suffice.
"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him"
Remember the Big Book was written in the 30's.There probably wasn't a lot of New age thinkers or confirmed atheist as today.Back then if you were an atheist you could pretty much guarantee a free pass to eternal hell.
You can get sober if you are an atheist and do the steps too.You just have to come to terms that doing in your way and you being your own higher power hasn't worked to well.I see nature as a power greater than me.The power of a hurricane,the destruction of an earthquake,or even the beatuy created by the colors of a sunset are something beyond my grasp.
Don't let people bully you into accepting something you don't.AA is not a religious entity.Lot of the verbose sounds like it because of the time it was written in but we each have to find our fit.Lots of people don't and that's fine too.
For me,it was the last house on the block.I had to get over myself and start taking suggestions.
P.S.I read that Eric Clapton book.I'll send it to you if it's something you might like.e-mail me your addresstimlincoln@aol.com
Step 3 was even worse.He finally had to make the decision that the group conciousness had to suffice.
"Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him"
Remember the Big Book was written in the 30's.There probably wasn't a lot of New age thinkers or confirmed atheist as today.Back then if you were an atheist you could pretty much guarantee a free pass to eternal hell.
You can get sober if you are an atheist and do the steps too.You just have to come to terms that doing in your way and you being your own higher power hasn't worked to well.I see nature as a power greater than me.The power of a hurricane,the destruction of an earthquake,or even the beatuy created by the colors of a sunset are something beyond my grasp.
Don't let people bully you into accepting something you don't.AA is not a religious entity.Lot of the verbose sounds like it because of the time it was written in but we each have to find our fit.Lots of people don't and that's fine too.
For me,it was the last house on the block.I had to get over myself and start taking suggestions.
P.S.I read that Eric Clapton book.I'll send it to you if it's something you might like.e-mail me your addresstimlincoln@aol.com
Lynn/Angela, I have nothing to add about the whole HP thing. Well, maybe just one thing.....as Tim pointed out, just find some thing more powerful than you and use that. Regardless of what you think, there are plenty of forces around that are strong, and positive, you can use.
As for the fitting in thing, I think we all feel that way to some degree, but it's only what we make of it. You fit in here as much as the next person, well...actually, more than many. I see you as being an important part of this board. You've been here for ages, you speak your mind, you don't BS anyone....all of this is what makes you you, and you would be missed if you were not here. Therefore, you are a part of this whole ARG thing going on every day.
I would venture to say with your strong personality, you can fit it in F2F situations whenever you desire to. It's just a matter of what you really want. Perhaps you have yet to find a group where you truly want to be a part of.
Despite your lack of faith, I would suggest you find a non-denominational church that has a good singles program and give that a try for a while. You will be surprised to learn that many of the people attending church regularly are not the "holy-rollers" you might expect and you might just find others who share your quest for answers there.
Laurenk834@aol.com.......my email. Use it anytime.
Happy New Year!
love, Carol
As for the fitting in thing, I think we all feel that way to some degree, but it's only what we make of it. You fit in here as much as the next person, well...actually, more than many. I see you as being an important part of this board. You've been here for ages, you speak your mind, you don't BS anyone....all of this is what makes you you, and you would be missed if you were not here. Therefore, you are a part of this whole ARG thing going on every day.
I would venture to say with your strong personality, you can fit it in F2F situations whenever you desire to. It's just a matter of what you really want. Perhaps you have yet to find a group where you truly want to be a part of.
Despite your lack of faith, I would suggest you find a non-denominational church that has a good singles program and give that a try for a while. You will be surprised to learn that many of the people attending church regularly are not the "holy-rollers" you might expect and you might just find others who share your quest for answers there.
Laurenk834@aol.com.......my email. Use it anytime.
Happy New Year!
love, Carol
Hey Tim and Carol YGM
My name is plastered all over the board today. I feel like an annoying thread hog! Guess I feel a little needy today. I'm embarrassed
My name is plastered all over the board today. I feel like an annoying thread hog! Guess I feel a little needy today. I'm embarrassed
I feel this way alot of the time. I always say that the God of my understanding is the God of my misunderstanding. I mean I don't get God. I really don't. But I do know that I'm nothing in relation to the world and everything in it. So from there I can believe it's not all me and there is something outside myself. Then I have to make some choices and that is to try to align with the good that is. To try to let that guide me. It's hard for me sometimes. We were the same went to church til I was 7 then stopped after my mom died. But it was enough to not make me religious but make me wonder what is out there. What outside of me is good and how do I align with it. Trust it. Ask it to help me. And I have to do that step everyday I think.
It's alot easier for me to feel apart from than with. I have to work at fitting in. I feel like my shoes are on the wrong feet and I don't speak about God in the way other people do cuz that's not my God or H/P or whatever.
So don't beat yourself up. My daily prayer is "Guide me in right thought, right word, right action." Just keep hanging in there and asking and don't give up. It comes when it comes! And sometimes it feels like it never comes! We never fit it! But that's okay cuz we do more than we realize.
I'm glad you posted today! Have a safe New Year!
Amy
It's alot easier for me to feel apart from than with. I have to work at fitting in. I feel like my shoes are on the wrong feet and I don't speak about God in the way other people do cuz that's not my God or H/P or whatever.
So don't beat yourself up. My daily prayer is "Guide me in right thought, right word, right action." Just keep hanging in there and asking and don't give up. It comes when it comes! And sometimes it feels like it never comes! We never fit it! But that's okay cuz we do more than we realize.
I'm glad you posted today! Have a safe New Year!
Amy
That's one of the most beautiful and eloquent descriptions I've heard given of one's Higher Power.
Thank you.What a way to start the New Year.
Thank you.What a way to start the New Year.
Thanks Amy, I appreciate the post.
lynn77, i've also read the book on Nikki from Motley Crew and for days afterwards, i wondered how in the heck he got to give up his addiction. I've seen him on different tv shows lately and he sure looks good. I just wished i had as much will power.
I enjoyed reading your post and espcially the part of ''not fiitting in". I've hadthat stinking feeling in my stomach for 45 years. I am 50 today and i am sure that is the reason i drank, took cocaine for years and smoked pot forever. Today, it is the first time i am trying to quit pot. I've made it so this far today and i am proud.But its hell.
I enjoyed reading your post and espcially the part of ''not fiitting in". I've hadthat stinking feeling in my stomach for 45 years. I am 50 today and i am sure that is the reason i drank, took cocaine for years and smoked pot forever. Today, it is the first time i am trying to quit pot. I've made it so this far today and i am proud.But its hell.
Hey Fleur, welcome to the board. I don't think I've seen your posts yet. I'm glad you found this site, I think its pretty cool here. Happy 2009, I hope you'll stick around!
I cannot be clean without my faith in God.... I do not go to meetings and don't prescribe to the 12 step way to be sober, but I do agree with their step of turning your life over to God. His gift is his grace and when you have absolved yourself of pride and selfishness your walk through life becomes clear. I understand how hard it is to accept the mere notion of a higher power and all that comes with the various religions and their multitude of differences. However, one element that is common to all of them is faith...
Exactly Dave
Fleur,welcome.
Fleur,welcome.
Hey Bikeman, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You get the h/p thing and look at you. Your good... Why is that the key? I wish I could get it..
Anyway, happy new year, its good to see you. (I'm angela99 from 2005)
Anyway, happy new year, its good to see you. (I'm angela99 from 2005)
Lynn, ultimately, it is not so important to understand why belief in a h/p works; but rather, to have faith that it does work. That is a leap to be sure.
The following may not help, but I located a letter written by Carl Jung on the subject of alcoholism after he had treated a Mr. Rowland for that problem. The same principles apply to any form of addiction. This letter suggests that one of the greatest psychiatrists of the 20th century subscribed to the view that belief in an HP can help alleviate the obsession to use. Now, understand that it was written 80 years ago, so the language may be a little out of date. Here are some excerpts from the letter, originally published in the Big Book.
[Mr. Rowland's] craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God.
I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary person not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of [addiction].
You see, "alcohol" in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum.
The phrase spiritus contra spiritum translates into the principle of using spiritual communion against the addiction; substituting God (in whatever form that has meaning for that individual) for addiction. Since this was written, countless people have taken this approach with success, including several notable rock stars mentioned previously elsewhere.
BTW, the Mr. Rowland referred to in the letter passed on these concepts to a fellow named Ebby, who later passed them on to Bill W, who went to be one of the co-founders of AA. Both Mr. Rowland and Ebby relapsed and died of complications relating to their respective addictions.
Keep asking questions,
August
The following may not help, but I located a letter written by Carl Jung on the subject of alcoholism after he had treated a Mr. Rowland for that problem. The same principles apply to any form of addiction. This letter suggests that one of the greatest psychiatrists of the 20th century subscribed to the view that belief in an HP can help alleviate the obsession to use. Now, understand that it was written 80 years ago, so the language may be a little out of date. Here are some excerpts from the letter, originally published in the Big Book.
[Mr. Rowland's] craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God.
I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary person not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of [addiction].
You see, "alcohol" in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum.
The phrase spiritus contra spiritum translates into the principle of using spiritual communion against the addiction; substituting God (in whatever form that has meaning for that individual) for addiction. Since this was written, countless people have taken this approach with success, including several notable rock stars mentioned previously elsewhere.
BTW, the Mr. Rowland referred to in the letter passed on these concepts to a fellow named Ebby, who later passed them on to Bill W, who went to be one of the co-founders of AA. Both Mr. Rowland and Ebby relapsed and died of complications relating to their respective addictions.
Keep asking questions,
August
Hi Angela,
Have you ever read, "Conversations with God," by Neale Donald Walsch? If not, you may want to check it out.
Take care,
Rachel
Have you ever read, "Conversations with God," by Neale Donald Walsch? If not, you may want to check it out.
Take care,
Rachel
Thank you for welcoming me you all to this board. It's really nice of you. This is the only place i can discuss my addiction really.
Angela - Did I read you were from Philly? I am from South Philly and now in DelCo. How bout you?
I, too, love " Conversations with God".
What a shift it made in my thinking.
What a shift it made in my thinking.
I am right with you. My first time here & my 1st posting. As I'm writing in the back of my head I'm trying to figure where I can get more pills. I feel like no I am such a loser.I'm 54 yrs old and i'm still F!?!?!? with this. WHAT IS MY PROBLEM??? Do I have a death wish?
Joanne
Joanne
