Everyone wants and needs to defend what they're doing, whatever that is. It's natural. Goes both ways.
As Carol's post indicates, one of the fundamental concepts of AA is that there will come a time when only God will be able to keep you from that first drink. Thus, working the 12 steps to improve your conscious contact with God is not only a way to a happier sobriety, it is also an absolute NECESSITY if you want to stay sober for any significant period of time.
I used to believe that, and preach it, but I do no longer. It doesn't threaten me that others believe it, although sometimes it seems to threaten others that I don't. I understand that completely. I was that way also. I also don't think it means that the AA program of recovery is any less valid, useful, or successful.
But the core disagreement over what is "essential" to longterm sobriety -- i.e., Holy intervention -- is what often results in the attitude that AA offers the only proven, successful path to sobriety. Science isn't enough, nor is self-will, knowledge, desire, or any other human attribute.
That may be true, but I no longer can look someone in the eye and say that I honestly believe it. That makes it difficult for me (and I'm only speaking for myself) to participate actively in AA, and it precludes my sponsoring anyone (in my opinion). That's one reason I've stopped. Because of AA, however, I believe that spiritual growth is essential to a meaningful and content life, and I have tools to stay sober that I could never have learned on my own.
Sorry for the length. I think it's great that we can have a discussion about this sensitive topic, hopefully without getting the thread locked. What I believe or don't believe doesn't matter a lick. What matters is what is working for you. Don't stop sharing that experience, whatever it may be. But please also be honest about what hasn't (or isn't) working....for your own sake. None
I think that in the beggining, the support is crucial, and would suggest it to anyone. I know it surely helped me; one man in particual never judged me each time I stumbled back in. It is like that post stated, we need to overcome the neurological defects and that takes time.
I think there are things about the people, not the program, that can skew it. It is a simple message, and it is the people that make it complicated. I got tired of the gossip, and cattiness and leaking of other's personal histories that made me "abstain" from meetings for a while,but that is just my own personal feeling.
I am still mixed because there are some very genuine souls there that held my hand and showed me how to not drink or use, one day at a time.
I think there are things about the people, not the program, that can skew it. It is a simple message, and it is the people that make it complicated. I got tired of the gossip, and cattiness and leaking of other's personal histories that made me "abstain" from meetings for a while,but that is just my own personal feeling.
I am still mixed because there are some very genuine souls there that held my hand and showed me how to not drink or use, one day at a time.
For me, I truly believe I have to give it back in order to keep it....
I thank God everyday that the meetings I attend have quite a few oldtimers with a lot of sobriety and they stick around to help those like me who came through the doors, hopeless and helpless and showed me a new way to live life...For me, I want to go to meetings and I want to be in service because if we all left after awhile, who would be there for the newcomer? For me, I truly believe it was the last stop and I am so grateful the doors were open and people were there for me when I needed them the most.
Thanks for letting me share....
I thank God everyday that the meetings I attend have quite a few oldtimers with a lot of sobriety and they stick around to help those like me who came through the doors, hopeless and helpless and showed me a new way to live life...For me, I want to go to meetings and I want to be in service because if we all left after awhile, who would be there for the newcomer? For me, I truly believe it was the last stop and I am so grateful the doors were open and people were there for me when I needed them the most.
Thanks for letting me share....
TIM WROTE................."You also use sub for chronic pain which I have no problem with.My whole beef with Sub is people who take it and then rely on it as some sort of chemical recovery.
I actually think if used for a minimum amount of time,it can be helpful.I just dont advertise that."
See, this is the whole point. You have no problem with MJ taking sub because she has chronic pain? Does that mean you do have "a problem" with the rest of us who are taking it?
You whole beef with Sub? LMAO
It is that constant poking and dropping of sly, little insults that bothers many of us. And I truly believe with all of my heart that is exactly why some of you do it. To get that little dig in, to be hurtful and to try to one up someone with whom you have problem. Maybe not you, Tim, but some on here do that, and you know who you are.
Is it necessary for you to share your opinoin about OUR choice of recovery? Are we supposed to care how you feel about our taking Sub? Isn;t that called taking another person's inventory? And doesn't the BB teach you not to do that?
As None pointed out, of course neither you nor I want to be slammed because we don't think the other person "approves" of our decision. On the one hand, I truly don't care what you think of me or my choices, but on the other hand for many of us here who do use Sub., it's getting a little old having it thrown up in our faces that we use it, and that those of you who attend daily meetings are somehow better, smarter, have something we don't have. You are not, and your do not.
If ,in fact, you were living the life AA teaches, you would not be on this board meddling in petty stuff to begin with. Some have their feather's ruffled lately, and taking a swing at Sub users is a cheap shot, IMHO. Go to a meeting if you are upset, don't come here and be nasty to other's just because your life isn't going good.
I actually think if used for a minimum amount of time,it can be helpful.I just dont advertise that."
See, this is the whole point. You have no problem with MJ taking sub because she has chronic pain? Does that mean you do have "a problem" with the rest of us who are taking it?
You whole beef with Sub? LMAO
It is that constant poking and dropping of sly, little insults that bothers many of us. And I truly believe with all of my heart that is exactly why some of you do it. To get that little dig in, to be hurtful and to try to one up someone with whom you have problem. Maybe not you, Tim, but some on here do that, and you know who you are.
Is it necessary for you to share your opinoin about OUR choice of recovery? Are we supposed to care how you feel about our taking Sub? Isn;t that called taking another person's inventory? And doesn't the BB teach you not to do that?
As None pointed out, of course neither you nor I want to be slammed because we don't think the other person "approves" of our decision. On the one hand, I truly don't care what you think of me or my choices, but on the other hand for many of us here who do use Sub., it's getting a little old having it thrown up in our faces that we use it, and that those of you who attend daily meetings are somehow better, smarter, have something we don't have. You are not, and your do not.
If ,in fact, you were living the life AA teaches, you would not be on this board meddling in petty stuff to begin with. Some have their feather's ruffled lately, and taking a swing at Sub users is a cheap shot, IMHO. Go to a meeting if you are upset, don't come here and be nasty to other's just because your life isn't going good.
Carol, I was taught with the old school aa thinking, and I also take sub; for almost 2 years.
I know how drugs act, and I know what addictive use is. I am so not in denial about that.
However, for those that don't use sub, it is easy to say we are just substituing another drug for our doc. Sub is so not like that; and I know because I take it.
I think you and I both know how and what sub is; it isn't a form of chemical recovery because we still can get loaded and screw up....we still have to do the work.
I, for one, am greatful for sub. I think if used properly and in conjuction with changing the behaviors and actions of addictive living, it is a great resource.
I know how drugs act, and I know what addictive use is. I am so not in denial about that.
However, for those that don't use sub, it is easy to say we are just substituing another drug for our doc. Sub is so not like that; and I know because I take it.
I think you and I both know how and what sub is; it isn't a form of chemical recovery because we still can get loaded and screw up....we still have to do the work.
I, for one, am greatful for sub. I think if used properly and in conjuction with changing the behaviors and actions of addictive living, it is a great resource.
Like it is stated on this board so often what works for one person doesn't mean it will work for the next. When I first joined this board I would read so much about NA/AA meetings and would kinda feel like my recovery without meetings was different or meant less because I didn't attend them. Not to say I haven't thought about going to one but counseling is what has worked for me. I say to each his own whatever works for you be it meetings, sub, counseling etc. In the long run we are all doing what it takes to stay clean. Shantel
Carol-It's my opinion.Take it for what's it worth.You've gotten defensive before at things I say.I have no control over that.Why does it matter to you what I think? Why are you giving me so much power?You won't be happy until I say what you want to hear.Sorry,but it's not going to happen.
I don't even know you so I certainly don't have any hostility towards you.This is a BB and we each express our opinions.
We have to live in the real world and people don't agree with each other.I think it's healthy we all have different views.I don't want a bunch of people around me saying what I want to hear.
Ask yourself why you are getting so worked up?
Actually,I thought this was a fairly civil thread.Im not attacking anyone.
Also,BTW....Carol,I always mean what I say.I don't have any hidden agenda.
If you read all this other stuff into it,I have no control over that.I do not think I'm better than anyone here.If sub is working for you,great.My opinion of it is still the same.I've read the sub forum too and there are just as many conflicting stories? Maybe after awhile my opinion will change?
I don't even know you so I certainly don't have any hostility towards you.This is a BB and we each express our opinions.
We have to live in the real world and people don't agree with each other.I think it's healthy we all have different views.I don't want a bunch of people around me saying what I want to hear.
Ask yourself why you are getting so worked up?
Actually,I thought this was a fairly civil thread.Im not attacking anyone.
Also,BTW....Carol,I always mean what I say.I don't have any hidden agenda.
If you read all this other stuff into it,I have no control over that.I do not think I'm better than anyone here.If sub is working for you,great.My opinion of it is still the same.I've read the sub forum too and there are just as many conflicting stories? Maybe after awhile my opinion will change?
Carol....I couldn't agree with you more...every word you wrote..its as if I wrote that post myself!! wow..scary!
I do believe this is the inner torment that I am having with the rooms of AA. I also have to say that when I was first induced with Sub..my Doc also insisted I did this group therapy that followed the teachings of AA. I went with mind and heart open...I went to a total of 2 meetings....on the second meeting someone had mentioned that what we spoke about the previous night was repeated outside the room to someone else. This blew me away...scared me...it certainly was not anonymous. Needless to say...I did not go back..but I have been to meetings since..and I go and I listen.
Anyone that know anything about addiction is this.....it more about the "behaviours" rather than actually ingesting the DOC. I know this....I know longer exhibit those behaviours...period...I don't. That is a miracle......this medication has been around for many many years...it was just the past few years that it has been approved in the USA for opioid treatment. There is so much information out there not only on a therapeutic level but also the depression qualities that is has....I am living proof of that...I have always felt that depression is what led me down the hellish road to addiction in the first place.
I don't know why so many that go to AA have a problem with this medication....why suffer....I mean if someone had a heart condition or diabetes would they be deemed NOT clean because they take medication to treat this disease...I think not.....
Suboxone has given me my life back...it has enabled me to stop the behaviours long enough to focus on what the issues are....long term short term ...pain no pain....it doesnt matter....it works....big deal. Not sure why this is a bee in the bonnet of the steppers???? Been pondering that one for a while.....your right Carol...that is taking someone else's inventory...but that happen a lot more than most would care to admit.
This discussion is a good one....but it is clear that there is some judgement out there in the comos...oh well
I do believe this is the inner torment that I am having with the rooms of AA. I also have to say that when I was first induced with Sub..my Doc also insisted I did this group therapy that followed the teachings of AA. I went with mind and heart open...I went to a total of 2 meetings....on the second meeting someone had mentioned that what we spoke about the previous night was repeated outside the room to someone else. This blew me away...scared me...it certainly was not anonymous. Needless to say...I did not go back..but I have been to meetings since..and I go and I listen.
Anyone that know anything about addiction is this.....it more about the "behaviours" rather than actually ingesting the DOC. I know this....I know longer exhibit those behaviours...period...I don't. That is a miracle......this medication has been around for many many years...it was just the past few years that it has been approved in the USA for opioid treatment. There is so much information out there not only on a therapeutic level but also the depression qualities that is has....I am living proof of that...I have always felt that depression is what led me down the hellish road to addiction in the first place.
I don't know why so many that go to AA have a problem with this medication....why suffer....I mean if someone had a heart condition or diabetes would they be deemed NOT clean because they take medication to treat this disease...I think not.....
Suboxone has given me my life back...it has enabled me to stop the behaviours long enough to focus on what the issues are....long term short term ...pain no pain....it doesnt matter....it works....big deal. Not sure why this is a bee in the bonnet of the steppers???? Been pondering that one for a while.....your right Carol...that is taking someone else's inventory...but that happen a lot more than most would care to admit.
This discussion is a good one....but it is clear that there is some judgement out there in the comos...oh well
Hi Tim Im going to put my input in this...I dont think Carol was taking anything out on you as a matter of fact I think she even said that.I think she is defensive because there are others who will say mean things about the use of Sub just because they are having a bad day or a ruff time.Usually the ones saying it are the ones who have NO clue about it.
". Maybe not you, Tim, but some on here do that, and you know who you are."
So I dont feel she directed that out you.The ones that judge are usually the ones who need to pick on something because thier recovery isnt going well.That clearly isnt you.
I can say Ive seen it over & over this judgement by some who feel Sub isnt the right way to stop usen(again not directed at you).They open thier mouths & sometimes they actually seem as if they are TRYING to bait Sub users in.How sorry that makes me for them.
Again this is just what I got from her post...
". Maybe not you, Tim, but some on here do that, and you know who you are."
So I dont feel she directed that out you.The ones that judge are usually the ones who need to pick on something because thier recovery isnt going well.That clearly isnt you.
I can say Ive seen it over & over this judgement by some who feel Sub isnt the right way to stop usen(again not directed at you).They open thier mouths & sometimes they actually seem as if they are TRYING to bait Sub users in.How sorry that makes me for them.
Again this is just what I got from her post...
Hi Molls....YGM
I will certainly watch what I say.I'm not trying to beat anyone up who is trying to get clean.I have my opinion of it and I've been here long enough that everyone knows it.I know I can be sarcastic and sometimes its best to pass.
I will officially appologize to anyone who has taken what I said the wrong way.I can be blunt but I'm not trying to be mean.
I'm not a spokesman for AA/NA....I want that understood.I'm not trying to do a sales job.I get enthusiastic about it but realize this is not an official NA site.
Like I said before,I've incorporated a lot of things into my program.Course in Miracles,Buddhism,Taoism...........its all good.
I will officially appologize to anyone who has taken what I said the wrong way.I can be blunt but I'm not trying to be mean.
I'm not a spokesman for AA/NA....I want that understood.I'm not trying to do a sales job.I get enthusiastic about it but realize this is not an official NA site.
Like I said before,I've incorporated a lot of things into my program.Course in Miracles,Buddhism,Taoism...........its all good.
k Ill respond later gotta take manda to work LOVE YA LADY!!!
Enjoyed your letter & think its so COOL that shes riding on 2 wheels....Now the real fear starts!!!!!
Enjoyed your letter & think its so COOL that shes riding on 2 wheels....Now the real fear starts!!!!!
Like I said before,I've incorporated a lot of things into my program.Course in Miracles,Buddhism,Taoism...........its all good.
Okay, now go buy the 10 Secrets for Inner Peace by DR. Wayne Dyer, and Power Vs. Force by David Hawkins...
You will love them; I guarantee it.
Okay, now go buy the 10 Secrets for Inner Peace by DR. Wayne Dyer, and Power Vs. Force by David Hawkins...
You will love them; I guarantee it.
can say Ive seen it over & over this judgement by some who feel Sub isnt the right way to stop usen(again not directed at you).They open thier mouths & sometimes they actually seem as if they are TRYING to bait Sub users in.How sorry that makes me for them.
Again this is just what I got from her post...
And I think it is used in a way to slap people down; when people that don't use it are fighting with someone who does, it is used as a dig....
"Well, your on sub and I am not so I am really better than you..."
When it is convient, that is.
Again this is just what I got from her post...
And I think it is used in a way to slap people down; when people that don't use it are fighting with someone who does, it is used as a dig....
"Well, your on sub and I am not so I am really better than you..."
When it is convient, that is.
Actually since you posted that the other day I have been curious.Thanks for reminding me.I'll go look for it on Amazon.
MJ- I have no experience with Sub myself but I do have an opinion. My belief is if you need it to help stop, if you need it regain control of your life, to be healthy, to relieve pain, it's great. I mean, I don't think people run around to multiple doctors to get extra or buy it off the street or anything..(someone if I am wrong, correct me). Not sure about long term (like years and years) of use. That kinda means you haven't changed your behavior to me but then again, maybe some people simply can't. Again, I don't know anything about it and just outside looking in. If I am wrong, call me out on it..
As far as AA/NA, I am fine without it, but again, some people need it. My Mom was alcoholic and was very active in AA for a loooong time. I, on the other hand, fell asleep in a meeting..hehe...they didn't like that..but seriously, I was able to stop without it. I have to many things in my life more important than taking a pill or having a drink and when I was able to get my priorities in line, that is what helped me. But I can certainly see how it would benefit people who actually need it and it's a terrific starting point at the very minimum. What I didn't like about that original article was the guy totally dismissed AA as a way to sobriety. What worked for him may not work for someone else and there was no reason to demonize AA as he did.
As far as AA/NA, I am fine without it, but again, some people need it. My Mom was alcoholic and was very active in AA for a loooong time. I, on the other hand, fell asleep in a meeting..hehe...they didn't like that..but seriously, I was able to stop without it. I have to many things in my life more important than taking a pill or having a drink and when I was able to get my priorities in line, that is what helped me. But I can certainly see how it would benefit people who actually need it and it's a terrific starting point at the very minimum. What I didn't like about that original article was the guy totally dismissed AA as a way to sobriety. What worked for him may not work for someone else and there was no reason to demonize AA as he did.
My experience
I am an addict; I was not just dependant on mind altering substances but an addict. There is a distinction. I have nursed many that have become dependant on morphine and would suffer withdrawals if there drug was just stopped but they were simply physically dependant and had not crossed the line I had crossed, they could drink normally or take pain relief again responsibly.
I had crossed that line one drug or drink was never enough and could never predict the outcome when I took that first drink/drug. It was never enough, I would wake in strange places, black out, obsesses and crave until I became unconscious. I had had a very long period (14 years of sobriety) without AA but when I picked up again I was totally defenceless against this disease. I was spiritually bankrupt, scared, confused and had no clue how to live with or without using. I could not believe the intensity of the insanity. How could I get tricked again after 14 years of the stuff.? Simple I did not truly understand this disease.
I was on Sub, was one of its biggest advocates on here years ago. Not many used it here then and I used to get flamed for it. It helped with the cravings for opiates but did not help with my messed up thinking and for that I always ended up drinking or getting stoned some other wayoh yeah but I did not take opiates so that was ok;)
Sub you see for me as a full blown addict was never enough, I even injected the stuff (I was on Subutex). on my fast journey down the bottomless spiral of destruction (It get faster and faster at the end) I was so resistant to AA and all the recovery doctrines and used to be that be an egotistical rebel without a clue in rehab. But my way did not work and I simply gave in.I am so happy I did. I found that I did not have to use anything to make myself feel better. But I did need a model for a way of recovering my life because I did not know how to live anymore, I had lost just about everything. Everything that I told a lot on here I would not lose, because I was too sensible for that and I wasnt a loser right?. AA/NA has given me tools to start living again. Its not the be all and end all and not the ONLY way but this addict was so lost that it gave me hope. Take away substances that I misused and my head was still a shed, It was not enough to be sober my life was unmanageable with or without the using.
All I can say is that God has used AA has saved my life and if anyone who is truly an addict and reads this thinking that they have things under control..well I thought all the same things. When I said I would never end up losing my job, my dignity, my family, my health, my mind ect..AA folk used to say not YET and I used to laugh.
I needed AA and its wonderful toolbox, I did not need another pill.
Just my experience
I am an addict; I was not just dependant on mind altering substances but an addict. There is a distinction. I have nursed many that have become dependant on morphine and would suffer withdrawals if there drug was just stopped but they were simply physically dependant and had not crossed the line I had crossed, they could drink normally or take pain relief again responsibly.
I had crossed that line one drug or drink was never enough and could never predict the outcome when I took that first drink/drug. It was never enough, I would wake in strange places, black out, obsesses and crave until I became unconscious. I had had a very long period (14 years of sobriety) without AA but when I picked up again I was totally defenceless against this disease. I was spiritually bankrupt, scared, confused and had no clue how to live with or without using. I could not believe the intensity of the insanity. How could I get tricked again after 14 years of the stuff.? Simple I did not truly understand this disease.
I was on Sub, was one of its biggest advocates on here years ago. Not many used it here then and I used to get flamed for it. It helped with the cravings for opiates but did not help with my messed up thinking and for that I always ended up drinking or getting stoned some other wayoh yeah but I did not take opiates so that was ok;)
Sub you see for me as a full blown addict was never enough, I even injected the stuff (I was on Subutex). on my fast journey down the bottomless spiral of destruction (It get faster and faster at the end) I was so resistant to AA and all the recovery doctrines and used to be that be an egotistical rebel without a clue in rehab. But my way did not work and I simply gave in.I am so happy I did. I found that I did not have to use anything to make myself feel better. But I did need a model for a way of recovering my life because I did not know how to live anymore, I had lost just about everything. Everything that I told a lot on here I would not lose, because I was too sensible for that and I wasnt a loser right?. AA/NA has given me tools to start living again. Its not the be all and end all and not the ONLY way but this addict was so lost that it gave me hope. Take away substances that I misused and my head was still a shed, It was not enough to be sober my life was unmanageable with or without the using.
All I can say is that God has used AA has saved my life and if anyone who is truly an addict and reads this thinking that they have things under control..well I thought all the same things. When I said I would never end up losing my job, my dignity, my family, my health, my mind ect..AA folk used to say not YET and I used to laugh.
I needed AA and its wonderful toolbox, I did not need another pill.
Just my experience
I see this debate over and over regarding sub and I know nothing about it except the folks who take it seem to be happy and livng a good life. Who is anyone to say anything about their choice of recovery. Who cares if some folks dont like or not, live your own life. A 12 step program helps me immensely but I dont ever advocate that its the only path to recovery. You can be happy without a 12 step program, I have seen people recover and live a successful life without a 12 step program. We are all folks struggling daily with addictions and it would be so great to focus on what we have in common instead of what our differences are.
Man,thanks for sharing that Neon.Very powerful.
Hi Paul,
Good to see you.
I have to ask, in all honesty tell me.....
When you took that sub, where you ready for change? Where you done and over in your own head......
Because that is where everyone needs to be no matter what route you go. You can take all the sub in the world and all that methadone and even doing meeting after meeting therapy out the a** and if you ain't off the ride yet, well you ain't off the ride....
Love to all,
Tina
Good to see you.
I have to ask, in all honesty tell me.....
When you took that sub, where you ready for change? Where you done and over in your own head......
Because that is where everyone needs to be no matter what route you go. You can take all the sub in the world and all that methadone and even doing meeting after meeting therapy out the a** and if you ain't off the ride yet, well you ain't off the ride....
Love to all,
Tina
