Hi there, I am posting for the first time today. I am desperately trying to get help for my close friend and first cousin. I will call her Kay. She is only thirty years old but has been a fioricet addict ( currently 15 pills a day) for ten years. She has had 15 felony counts for prescription fraud but hasn't had any jail time due to the fact that our family has a lot of political connections in the town where she got into trouble. She just got kicked out of a $15K one-month rehab program after two weeks for getting caught with drugs. She is married with two kids, she doesn't work and hasn't for about five years ever since she got fired from her job as a radiation technologist for stealing an RX pad from her boss and forging prescriptions for herself. Our entire family loves her a lot, mainly because of our memories of how she used to be and could hopefully be again. She is a pretty hopeless case, and the whole family may be enabling her to continue her addiction because she has never truly had to pay big-time for being an addict. In other words, she still has a very nice home to live in, she has lots of family to help her with the kids whenever she wants, etc. She says she needs fioricet for migraines, but whether or not this is true nobody can say for sure. Right now the whole family is trying to figure out if she should go directly into another residential treatment facility or not. The family is chipping in to pay for all this because in addition to fioricet she is addicted to shopping, and she and her husband are in major debt. She has even racked up $10K on her mom's name, by stealing her mom's ID and getting a card. She has also caused trouble for her sister-in-law by using her name to get a bunch of prescriptions filled, to the point that the police came to her sister-in-law's house and took her in to question her. That is how we found out how bad it was the first time, which was three years ago or so. Now she has just gotten caught using other family members' IDs to get drugs again, and if the police were to find out, she would automatically go to jail. She never did get any jail time, and if she does not get into any more trouble her record will be wiped clean. It pays to know people in high places, as the only way this kind of leniency was accomplished was by calling in a lot of favors and getting a family friend to be the judge at her trial. But at the same time, is this kind of help really what she needs? Does she need to go to jail? Her husband has asked her to move in with her parents, and that is where she is now. This is not really a hardship, however, as her parents live in a mansion and she has a lot of privacy, as well as constant help with the children. I am sure she is demoralized by getting kicked out of the program after her relatives spent all that money, but at the same time, she is so changed and so untrustworthy, I am not sure if she really gets how bad off she is. She only agreed to go to rehab because her husband gave her an ultimatum. Now the entire family is scurrying to figure out what to do next. Our uncle is a primary care physician, and he is the one who has been directing her care. However, my husband is also a doctor (a cardiothoracic surgeon, so he is not very familiar with this type of case), and he feels that methadone treatment may be a good idea. WHAT SHOULD WE DO???? Thank you so much! signed, anne
Do an intervention with the help of someone from a treatment center. Yep, it's going to piss her off but in the long run she'll learn that it was out of love and concern from her family. Wish mine had done that for me long ago..... Struggling on your own, even when you think you're a tough guy, really sucks.
She's beyond what any of you can do..now it's up to her.
Good luck and take care
Cowgirl
She's beyond what any of you can do..now it's up to her.
Good luck and take care
Cowgirl
I would add that her family needs to learn how to stop enabling her. Pulling strings to get her out of trouble time and time again will only empower her addiction. The family should learn more about co-dependency and let her find a bottom. Until she does so and becomes willing to learn how to live clean and sober, throwing money at the problem will not yield much in terms of results.
August
August
I cannot agree with that more.........Once her saftey-net is gone, she just may find her bottom.
God Bless, Russell
God Bless, Russell
Hi there, thanks to everyone for giving me advice. I am wondering what would you all recommend be our immediate steps? One of you mentioned an intervention with a treatment program participant. Do you mean that she should go to another in-patient facility right away, even though she has demonstrated that she is not ready to quit by obtaining drugs at her last program?
Do you think that she should be "turned in" to the police for violation of her not being placed in jail in the first place? If the authorities were to know that she was again breaking the law to do drugs she would go directly to jail. This is a horrendous thought for all of the family. There are several family members who know that she is using their ID's to get drugs again. So any one of us could turn her in. Is that what you mean by forcing her to hit rock-bottom? Her dad has told her that he is going to take her to jail if he catches her with drugs. So that is a step that is being considered. But I highly doubt that he has thought to make her do a drug test regularly. Would you recommend that? Kay has told me that going to a physciatrist doesn't help unless she is in the mood to be honest, and she isn't being truthful about what she is doing when she sees her doc, and hasn't for a long time. She is not on antidepressants, but she has been on Prozac before, the first time she got into trouble and had to go to court. She started seeing a therapist, and she was also going to narc-anon to satisfy the terms of her court case. It sounds like the family needs to go to the support group that teaches us not to enable her. That definitely sounds like a sound thing to do. What about treating her with something like methadone? That has never been suggested, so far as I know. Perhaps it is not possible for her to quit without something like that? What does everyone recommend as our immediate next steps to really help her? Thanks, Anne
Do you think that she should be "turned in" to the police for violation of her not being placed in jail in the first place? If the authorities were to know that she was again breaking the law to do drugs she would go directly to jail. This is a horrendous thought for all of the family. There are several family members who know that she is using their ID's to get drugs again. So any one of us could turn her in. Is that what you mean by forcing her to hit rock-bottom? Her dad has told her that he is going to take her to jail if he catches her with drugs. So that is a step that is being considered. But I highly doubt that he has thought to make her do a drug test regularly. Would you recommend that? Kay has told me that going to a physciatrist doesn't help unless she is in the mood to be honest, and she isn't being truthful about what she is doing when she sees her doc, and hasn't for a long time. She is not on antidepressants, but she has been on Prozac before, the first time she got into trouble and had to go to court. She started seeing a therapist, and she was also going to narc-anon to satisfy the terms of her court case. It sounds like the family needs to go to the support group that teaches us not to enable her. That definitely sounds like a sound thing to do. What about treating her with something like methadone? That has never been suggested, so far as I know. Perhaps it is not possible for her to quit without something like that? What does everyone recommend as our immediate next steps to really help her? Thanks, Anne
Personally, I don't think replacing one drug with another is the answer..but hey, that's just me. I do beleive that some have to hit bottom before they can surface but I also beleive that none of us are throw aways. Especially those with children. We need a little help in getting our lives back from those that are a lot more knowledgable than us.
It doesn't hurt to try an intervention.... put it in the hands of professionals. I personally couldn't give up on a family member and would hate to think what would of happend to me if others had given up. We are not criminals, we are sick. We need help. That's what families are for.
Cowgirl
It doesn't hurt to try an intervention.... put it in the hands of professionals. I personally couldn't give up on a family member and would hate to think what would of happend to me if others had given up. We are not criminals, we are sick. We need help. That's what families are for.
Cowgirl
I have difficulty responding to questions from family members because I am an addict, not a person who is living with or being impacted by an addict. As such, I have little to no personal experience in how to advise a family with this kind of problem and thus am reluctant to offer advice from a false position of expertise.
As such, the onlye advice I can offer is to seek help from those who have the experience to offer some real insight. The best place to start is nar anon or al anon, but you might also consider a licensed therapist with expertise in addiction issues.
Good luck
August
As such, the onlye advice I can offer is to seek help from those who have the experience to offer some real insight. The best place to start is nar anon or al anon, but you might also consider a licensed therapist with expertise in addiction issues.
Good luck
August
Dear Group, Thanks to you all for your insight. I agree that nobody is a throwaway, least of all this person whom we all love so dearly and feel so much pain for. Surely she is in even more pain than all of us combined, even if she doesn't say so and does all in her power to make everyone think she can handle her life just fine. It does seem like replacing one drug with another is a faulty concept. I will definitely try and see if some of us can start seeking professional advice through one of the support groups you mentioned. Thanks again!! Sincerely, Anne
Every life is worth saving! I thought my brother was beyond help, but on my last attempt (of course I said it was my last attempt, but it would not have been), he responded to my help. Thank God. He went to jail once for a few days, and that did not stop him from using. So its really up to the individual. They have got to realize they have a problem and want help. Good luck.
dear anne -
fioricet was my drug of choice. i forsaked everyone and everything for that fix. of course when fioricet was not available, your drug was my drug. i think i would have abused chicken lips or cherry pits if i thought it took me out of me.
with the history your relate of your friend's usage, i'm willing to bet that 99% of those headaches are what is called rebound headaches. i know as the drug's effect wore off, my head hurt like hell. hence, my perception that i needed more.
you mention the illegalaties of how your friend is obtaining fioricet - stealing script pads, using other people's name and whether or not family members should report this behavior to the police. i'm wondering anne if these family members who know of your friend's illegal behavior and choose to do nothing about this, if this makes them an accessory after the fact? i'm not sure and the advice of lawyer might be wise to seek.
i can only speak for myself and the turns my life took when my friends and family members started taking care of themselves instead of the painful enabling acts they did regarding my addiction. like your friend, i was not trustworthy, not present for my children, spouse, family, friends or self. it's hard to be present when drugs are your central focus. they got sick and tired of my addiction long before i did and our relationships dwindled. before long i was stuck alone in my self-imposed misery and insanity. my husband had had enough and my children were taken away from me. my family members realized that they had done all they could do and had to protect themselves by keeping their distance. they realized that they were up against something (addiction) that was cunning, baffling, and powerful.
they day finally came that the pain of the consequences of my using became too painful to live with. that is the day when i surrendered. i had been in rehab 5 times before this. this last time i was tethered to a bed in a cell in a psychiatric unit, after being in a coma for 4 days. nothing would compute in my drug addled brain. i had unintentionally overdosed while chasing a fioricet high. i took 80 fioricet within a 24 hour period while in a blackout. however, i don't think my intentions much mattered had i died. addiction is progressive and sometimes fatal. the day i awoke, i realized the gig was up and all i could mutter was God help me.
the big book of alcoholics anonymous tells us this:
our description of the alcoholic/addict, the chapter to the
agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after
make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic/addict and could not manage our
own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved
our alcoholism.
That God could and would if He were sought.
emphasis added
my life was clearly unmanageable and God bless the people who tried to help; however, there was only one Power that ended up helping me in the end. this was the God of my understanding and how blessed i am to have finally realized this.
quiet your mind, dear anne. you, your friend's family and friends need help too. addiction is a family disease. go to any length you have to go to so this disease does not have power over you. try al-anon, nar-anon, or an addiction therapist to learn what you need to do for yourself when dealing with a love one who is in the throes of addiction.
thanks for letting me share.
there is a solution.
namaste'
sammy
fioricet was my drug of choice. i forsaked everyone and everything for that fix. of course when fioricet was not available, your drug was my drug. i think i would have abused chicken lips or cherry pits if i thought it took me out of me.
with the history your relate of your friend's usage, i'm willing to bet that 99% of those headaches are what is called rebound headaches. i know as the drug's effect wore off, my head hurt like hell. hence, my perception that i needed more.
you mention the illegalaties of how your friend is obtaining fioricet - stealing script pads, using other people's name and whether or not family members should report this behavior to the police. i'm wondering anne if these family members who know of your friend's illegal behavior and choose to do nothing about this, if this makes them an accessory after the fact? i'm not sure and the advice of lawyer might be wise to seek.
i can only speak for myself and the turns my life took when my friends and family members started taking care of themselves instead of the painful enabling acts they did regarding my addiction. like your friend, i was not trustworthy, not present for my children, spouse, family, friends or self. it's hard to be present when drugs are your central focus. they got sick and tired of my addiction long before i did and our relationships dwindled. before long i was stuck alone in my self-imposed misery and insanity. my husband had had enough and my children were taken away from me. my family members realized that they had done all they could do and had to protect themselves by keeping their distance. they realized that they were up against something (addiction) that was cunning, baffling, and powerful.
they day finally came that the pain of the consequences of my using became too painful to live with. that is the day when i surrendered. i had been in rehab 5 times before this. this last time i was tethered to a bed in a cell in a psychiatric unit, after being in a coma for 4 days. nothing would compute in my drug addled brain. i had unintentionally overdosed while chasing a fioricet high. i took 80 fioricet within a 24 hour period while in a blackout. however, i don't think my intentions much mattered had i died. addiction is progressive and sometimes fatal. the day i awoke, i realized the gig was up and all i could mutter was God help me.
the big book of alcoholics anonymous tells us this:
our description of the alcoholic/addict, the chapter to the
agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after
make clear three pertinent ideas:
(a) That we were alcoholic/addict and could not manage our
own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved
our alcoholism.
That God could and would if He were sought.
emphasis added
my life was clearly unmanageable and God bless the people who tried to help; however, there was only one Power that ended up helping me in the end. this was the God of my understanding and how blessed i am to have finally realized this.
quiet your mind, dear anne. you, your friend's family and friends need help too. addiction is a family disease. go to any length you have to go to so this disease does not have power over you. try al-anon, nar-anon, or an addiction therapist to learn what you need to do for yourself when dealing with a love one who is in the throes of addiction.
thanks for letting me share.
there is a solution.
namaste'
sammy
Dear Sammy, Thank you so very much for your sincere and encouraging words. I feel a real connection to Kay, above and beyond being first cousins, as we have a whole lot in common and have always (until this addiction came into play) been close. I share her spending compulsion, and I also alternated between anorexia and bulimia for ten years. So I undersand being in emotional/spiritual pain, and seeking the wrong things to alleviate it. I'm far from perfect, and I don't expect perfection in others, including Kay, of course. However, without a higher power, I also believe that any troubled person will never find peace for long. Without faith in God, I never could have given up the eating disorder, which at times completely ruled my life. I still struggle with low self-esteem, and with fighting urges to binge. Due to the fact that I have a generous husband, my spending problem is not as obvious to others as it could be. But I know it is always there, and sometimes I am better than other times. The main point is that I can relate to Kara's desperation at some level. I try to remind her of all my flaws and to boost her self-image by letting her know that nobody can ever be perfect, but like you said, at her base it's all about the drug, so I don't think anything breaks through for long. She is a major people-pleaser and always has been (how ironic now that everyone is displeased with her), so it is hard to say whether she means any of what she says about wanting to clean up. According to her, this is her rock-bottom, but nobody in the family really feels she means that.
You mentioned that we family members whose ID's she's used for illegally obtaining drugs may be accessories to a crime for not reporting Kay. I will mention this to my Dad. He is an attorney. I don't know if we've even given that possibility any thought whatsoever. The only thing we have considered is that if we were ever to be called in to testify against her, we would have to be honest, and for that reason, my father and my uncle (the one who has primarily been making decisions about what to do for her/with her in order to get her off fioricet) have even told Kay not to tell them details about how she gets the drugs. She has a variety of ways, from what she told me.
I cannot even conceive of Kay hitting the bottom as hard as you did. We are all in so much pain, we feel that her old peronality is dead, but if she were to really be dead we would never recover from the loss. She has the potential to be all that she once was, at least as far as our love for her is concerned. Her place in our hearts has not diminished in the least. It is only our respect for her that has been tarnished, but not irrevocably. And we do fully accept that she is controlled by drugs. She also will take whatever she can get when fioricet is unavailable, and she has admitted that she is a regular medicine cabinet raider whenever she goes to just about anyone's house. She is very, very crafty in obtaining drugs and in tricking the family into thinking her erratic behavior is related to migraines and fatigue because of her kids being early risers, which is why for nearly three years she had us all fooled into thinking that after she got into trouble with the law, she cleaned up. But she has never stopped using, all this time. She is in reality a non-participant in life, though, and has been for the past ten years, for sure. It has only been extremely recently that we all realized that fioricet has been the reason for her frequent bouts of not getting out of bed, rarely leaving the house, etc. Yet we were always puzzled by how bad her "migraines" were, when only a day later she would be perfectly fine... better than fine... actually in a seemingly elevated state. I guess we just had our heads in the sand, and Kay has even blamed us for choosing not to see the truth. She is definitely in a blaming state of mind-- even though she apologizes for her actions, she doesn't seem to feel as sorry for her actions as much as she is sorry for herself.
Kay's husband may after all this time finally give up on her and divorce her. She cheated on him with a man she thought she had fallen in love with, and according to Kay she was going to move to another state with the man (he was a doctor and felt the stigma of leaving his wife would hurt his practice if they didn't move), but then the man's wife got pregnant and the affair fizzled. Her husband found love letters Kay wrote to the man, letters in which she was trying to convince him to leave his pregnant wife. So he has had a lot of pain in the relationship. She has also practically bankrupted them, which has been humiliating for him. All their money has gone toward her spending addiction. Worst of all, she is treating the children very badly at times... most recently she told her three-year-old to "shut the f-ck up," and the child told her dad. Still, beneath all this terrible behavior, we all know how redeemable Kay is!!!
Is your true message to me that we cannot keep being her soft place to fall if we want her to change? It is very easy, and certainly the established pattern, for all of us to pick up the pieces of her life for her time and time again. I am sure we are all getting our own sick, self-satisfied highs off of feeling so "helpful"... I mean, what are we getting out of all this, if not that? It truly does feel like a sick merry-go-round after all this time, since she is not any better at all despite all our supposed help. Would you recommend that her husband not allow her to move back in until she cleans up? I truly don't know how close he is to the end of his rope with her. It is up to him, and he is very private. Nobody has a clue what he has gone through. He keeps a lot of her worst behavior to himself. Kay herself has told us more than her husband ever has about her lowest times. Maybe he won't tell because he feels others would find fault with his willingness to tolerate it. The whole situation is so very delicate. Maybe we are making it too easy for her to continue by taming everything down in order to make it easier for us to stomach, without really considering her at all. Everything is so convoluted.
Speaking of which, what is your opinion of telling the police what Kay has done? We are all petrified that due to her former record (after two years of not getting into trouble after her fifteen felony counts---all that time we thought she really was clean but she wasn't), her crimes were reduced down to one misdemeanor. In another year from that date, she is scheduled to re-appear in court, and if she hasn't gotten into any more trouble her record is supposed to be wiped clean. So she is supposed to go back to court in another six months or so. According to my dad, her one misdemeanor can't be converted back to 15 felonies. But if the police were to investigate her again based on one person turning her in, it is pretty likely that they would find a lot of evidence against her all over again, and she could even conceivably get another 15 felonies, and this time I have a hard time believing that she would escape jail time. We are all scared that she could get locked up for a really long time, which is why even though we feel she would benefit from being scared by entering the system for a couple of nights or at the most a month, we absolutely do NOT want her to end up in jail for an extended period of time. Do you know anything about this sort of sentencing?
Well, Sammy, thank you for letting me unload also.
Whatever further advice or insight you can give would be appreciated. And congatulations on your recovery! You give me a lot of hope.
Sincerely, Anne
You mentioned that we family members whose ID's she's used for illegally obtaining drugs may be accessories to a crime for not reporting Kay. I will mention this to my Dad. He is an attorney. I don't know if we've even given that possibility any thought whatsoever. The only thing we have considered is that if we were ever to be called in to testify against her, we would have to be honest, and for that reason, my father and my uncle (the one who has primarily been making decisions about what to do for her/with her in order to get her off fioricet) have even told Kay not to tell them details about how she gets the drugs. She has a variety of ways, from what she told me.
I cannot even conceive of Kay hitting the bottom as hard as you did. We are all in so much pain, we feel that her old peronality is dead, but if she were to really be dead we would never recover from the loss. She has the potential to be all that she once was, at least as far as our love for her is concerned. Her place in our hearts has not diminished in the least. It is only our respect for her that has been tarnished, but not irrevocably. And we do fully accept that she is controlled by drugs. She also will take whatever she can get when fioricet is unavailable, and she has admitted that she is a regular medicine cabinet raider whenever she goes to just about anyone's house. She is very, very crafty in obtaining drugs and in tricking the family into thinking her erratic behavior is related to migraines and fatigue because of her kids being early risers, which is why for nearly three years she had us all fooled into thinking that after she got into trouble with the law, she cleaned up. But she has never stopped using, all this time. She is in reality a non-participant in life, though, and has been for the past ten years, for sure. It has only been extremely recently that we all realized that fioricet has been the reason for her frequent bouts of not getting out of bed, rarely leaving the house, etc. Yet we were always puzzled by how bad her "migraines" were, when only a day later she would be perfectly fine... better than fine... actually in a seemingly elevated state. I guess we just had our heads in the sand, and Kay has even blamed us for choosing not to see the truth. She is definitely in a blaming state of mind-- even though she apologizes for her actions, she doesn't seem to feel as sorry for her actions as much as she is sorry for herself.
Kay's husband may after all this time finally give up on her and divorce her. She cheated on him with a man she thought she had fallen in love with, and according to Kay she was going to move to another state with the man (he was a doctor and felt the stigma of leaving his wife would hurt his practice if they didn't move), but then the man's wife got pregnant and the affair fizzled. Her husband found love letters Kay wrote to the man, letters in which she was trying to convince him to leave his pregnant wife. So he has had a lot of pain in the relationship. She has also practically bankrupted them, which has been humiliating for him. All their money has gone toward her spending addiction. Worst of all, she is treating the children very badly at times... most recently she told her three-year-old to "shut the f-ck up," and the child told her dad. Still, beneath all this terrible behavior, we all know how redeemable Kay is!!!
Is your true message to me that we cannot keep being her soft place to fall if we want her to change? It is very easy, and certainly the established pattern, for all of us to pick up the pieces of her life for her time and time again. I am sure we are all getting our own sick, self-satisfied highs off of feeling so "helpful"... I mean, what are we getting out of all this, if not that? It truly does feel like a sick merry-go-round after all this time, since she is not any better at all despite all our supposed help. Would you recommend that her husband not allow her to move back in until she cleans up? I truly don't know how close he is to the end of his rope with her. It is up to him, and he is very private. Nobody has a clue what he has gone through. He keeps a lot of her worst behavior to himself. Kay herself has told us more than her husband ever has about her lowest times. Maybe he won't tell because he feels others would find fault with his willingness to tolerate it. The whole situation is so very delicate. Maybe we are making it too easy for her to continue by taming everything down in order to make it easier for us to stomach, without really considering her at all. Everything is so convoluted.
Speaking of which, what is your opinion of telling the police what Kay has done? We are all petrified that due to her former record (after two years of not getting into trouble after her fifteen felony counts---all that time we thought she really was clean but she wasn't), her crimes were reduced down to one misdemeanor. In another year from that date, she is scheduled to re-appear in court, and if she hasn't gotten into any more trouble her record is supposed to be wiped clean. So she is supposed to go back to court in another six months or so. According to my dad, her one misdemeanor can't be converted back to 15 felonies. But if the police were to investigate her again based on one person turning her in, it is pretty likely that they would find a lot of evidence against her all over again, and she could even conceivably get another 15 felonies, and this time I have a hard time believing that she would escape jail time. We are all scared that she could get locked up for a really long time, which is why even though we feel she would benefit from being scared by entering the system for a couple of nights or at the most a month, we absolutely do NOT want her to end up in jail for an extended period of time. Do you know anything about this sort of sentencing?
Well, Sammy, thank you for letting me unload also.
Whatever further advice or insight you can give would be appreciated. And congatulations on your recovery! You give me a lot of hope.
Sincerely, Anne
dear anne, you said:
Thank you so very much for your sincere and encouraging words. I feel a real connection to Kay, above and beyond being first cousins, as we have a whole lot in common and have always (until this addiction came into play) been close. I share her spending compulsion, and I also alternated between anorexia and bulimia for ten years. So I undersand being in emotional/spiritual pain, and seeking the wrong things to alleviate it. I'm far from perfect, and I don't expect perfection in others, including Kay, of course. However, without a higher power, I also believe that any troubled person will never find peace for long. Without faith in God, I never could have given up the eating disorder, which at times completely ruled my life. I still struggle with low self-esteem, and with fighting urges to binge. Due to the fact that I have a generous husband, my spending problem is not as obvious to others as it could be. But I know it is always there, and sometimes I am better than other times. The main point is that I can relate to Kara's desperation at some level. I try to remind her of all my flaws and to boost her self-image by letting her know that nobody can ever be perfect, but like you said, at her base it's all about the drug, so I don't think anything breaks through for long. She is a major people-pleaser and always has been (how ironic now that everyone is displeased with her), so it is hard to say whether she means any of what she says about wanting to clean up. According to her, this is her rock-bottom, but nobody in the family really feels she means that.
one of the purposes of this spiritual program of recovery (12 steps) is progress, not perfection. i strive to be more God like and in doing so, i find it brings me eyeball to eyeball with my own laziness. spiritual recovery is a process, my friend and 12 steps in my humble opinion is a spiritual kindergarten that serves as a gateway to unleashing the love we are.
You mentioned that we family members whose ID's she's used for illegally obtaining drugs may be accessories to a crime for not reporting Kay. I will mention this to my Dad. He is an attorney. I don't know if we've even given that possibility any thought whatsoever. The only thing we have considered is that if we were ever to be called in to testify against her, we would have to be honest, and for that reason, my father and my uncle (the one who has primarily been making decisions about what to do for her/with her in order to get her off fioricet) have even told Kay not to tell them details about how she gets the drugs. She has a variety of ways, from what she told me.
i am not qualified to render any legal advice. it is very good to hear that you have legal counsel in your family. i can share with you my experience when i was reported to law officers for the consequences of my behavior while addicted and there were times when people knew what i was doing and didn't report it. while scared beyond my wildest imagination when having to answer to the law about my addicted behavior, that did not stop me from using. the law, my family, friends, people who tried to help me did not work for me. the simple reason was because i did not want to recover. until i reached a point where i could totally surrender and with the help of the God of my understanding did i finally accept that my way was not working. it was then and only then that i became willing to heed the simple suggestions that recovery had to offer.
I cannot even conceive of Kay hitting the bottom as hard as you did. We are all in so much pain, we feel that her old peronality is dead, but if she were to really be dead we would never recover from the loss. She has the potential to be all that she once was, at least as far as our love for her is concerned. Her place in our hearts has not diminished in the least. It is only our respect for her that has been tarnished, but not irrevocably. And we do fully accept that she is controlled by drugs. She also will take whatever she can get when fioricet is unavailable, and she has admitted that she is a regular medicine cabinet raider whenever she goes to just about anyone's house. She is very, very crafty in obtaining drugs and in tricking the family into thinking her erratic behavior is related to migraines and fatigue because of her kids being early risers, which is why for nearly three years she had us all fooled into thinking that after she got into trouble with the law, she cleaned up. But she has never stopped using, all this time. She is in reality a non-participant in life, though, and has been for the past ten years, for sure. It has only been extremely recently that we all realized that fioricet has been the reason for her frequent bouts of not getting out of bed, rarely leaving the house, etc. Yet we were always puzzled by how bad her "migraines" were, when only a day later she would be perfectly fine... better than fine... actually in a seemingly elevated state. I guess we just had our heads in the sand, and Kay has even blamed us for choosing not to see the truth. She is definitely in a blaming state of mind-- even though she apologizes for her actions, she doesn't seem to feel as sorry for her actions as much as she is sorry for herself.
what you are describing anne is the behavior that defines addiction - lying, cheating, stealing, manipulating, rationalizing, minimizing these are all games we play with ourselves and others in order to feed our sick egos/fears. kay is sick and kay does need help. perhaps the pain that kay suffers as a result of her addiction will become too severe to live with before it is too late. i know my pain did - i lost it all - the house on the hill, careers, friends, family members etc. but more importantly anne, i lost the very things that are vital in my life today - the ability to love myself and others, express compassion, being trustworthy, my integrity. by what you describe i don't know if kay realizes this yet. i say yet because addiction is a progressive illness and as our addiction progresses, so do our consequences. the first step of AA states that we admit we are powerless over our addiction, our lives have become unmanageable. the good addict i am liked to complicate that step. i thought because i had not lost all those material things and still had a job my life was not unmanageable. how simple is it to realize that when we are powerless over something, this "thing" makes it unmanageable?
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Kay's husband may after all this time finally give up on her and divorce her. She cheated on him with a man she thought she had fallen in love with, and according to Kay she was going to move to another state with the man (he was a doctor and felt the stigma of leaving his wife would hurt his practice if they didn't move), but then the man's wife got pregnant and the affair fizzled. Her husband found love letters Kay wrote to the man, letters in which she was trying to convince him to leave his pregnant wife. So he has had a lot of pain in the relationship. She has also practically bankrupted them, which has been humiliating for him. All their money has gone toward her spending addiction. Worst of all, she is treating the children very badly at times... most recently she told her three-year-old to "shut the f-ck up," and the child told her dad. Still, beneath all this terrible behavior, we all know how redeemable Kay is!!!
redeemable? probably so when kay makes the decision to stop using and enter a program of recovery. however, nothing makes sense when an addict is caught up in the throes of active addiction. our children, spouses, significant others, friends, bosses etc. all become confused by our behavior. addiction my friend is cunning, baffling, and oh so evil and powerful.
Is your true message to me that we cannot keep being her soft place to fall if we want her to change? It is very easy, and certainly the established pattern, for all of us to pick up the pieces of her life for her time and time again. I am sure we are all getting our own sick, self-satisfied highs off of feeling so "helpful"... I mean, what are we getting out of all this, if not that? It truly does feel like a sick merry-go-round after all this time, since she is not any better at all despite all our supposed help. Would you recommend that her husband not allow her to move back in until she cleans up? I truly don't know how close he is to the end of his rope with her. It is up to him, and he is very private. Nobody has a clue what he has gone through. He keeps a lot of her worst behavior to himself. Kay herself has told us more than her husband ever has about her lowest times. Maybe he won't tell because he feels others would find fault with his willingness to tolerate it. The whole situation is so very delicate. Maybe we are making it too easy for her to continue by taming everything down in order to make it easier for us to stomach, without really considering her at all. Everything is so convoluted.
Speaking of which, what is your opinion of telling the police what Kay has done? We are all petrified that due to her former record (after two years of not getting into trouble after her fifteen felony counts---all that time we thought she really was clean but she wasn't), her crimes were reduced down to one misdemeanor. In another year from that date, she is scheduled to re-appear in court, and if she hasn't gotten into any more trouble her record is supposed to be wiped clean. So she is supposed to go back to court in another six months or so. According to my dad, her one misdemeanor can't be converted back to 15 felonies. But if the police were to investigate her again based on one person turning her in, it is pretty likely that they would find a lot of evidence against her all over again, and she could even conceivably get another 15 felonies, and this time I have a hard time believing that she would escape jail time. We are all scared that she could get locked up for a really long time, which is why even though we feel she would benefit from being scared by entering the system for a couple of nights or at the most a month, we absolutely do NOT want her to end up in jail for an extended period of time. Do you know anything about this sort of sentencing?
my true mesage is that addiction affects everyone that interacts in the addicts life. everyone is affected by this sickness and the suggestion i give to love ones of an addict is to take care of themselves. whether it's through al-anon, nar-anon, family counseling, a substance abuse therapist, a minister, get some help for yourself.
you say kay has the potential to be her old self again and again i will speak my truth...failed recovery is responding to present-day situations with yesterday's emotional package-which you used back when the situation was totally different. serenity or living in a state of recovery is all about letting yesterday be yesterday and today be today. recovery is training ourselves by practicing daily disciplines to act in the present as the present and not from the emotional stance of a thousand past yesterdays.
dear precious anne - there is a solution for kay and all of you who love her.
in recovery we are past the past - our time is now!
a prayer for you and kay and all addicts on this board.
namaste'
sammy
________
Dear God,
I do not understand why I hang onto certain events and feelings from the past.
Intellectually I accept and understand that the past is over.
I honor my story and recognize the part that all of my yesterdays played
in bringing me to now.
I release and surrender past hurts, loves, jobs, wrongs, miscreations,
missed opportunities, experiences, joys, and sorrows.
I forgive myself and all other persons knowing that we did the best we knew
how.
Those times are over; the past is past.
I choose to be fully awake and alive in this moment.
With Your guidance, I open myself to the gift of the present.
Thank You, God.
Amen
peace is my gift.
redeemable? probably so when kay makes the decision to stop using and enter a program of recovery. however, nothing makes sense when an addict is caught up in the throes of active addiction. our children, spouses, significant others, friends, bosses etc. all become confused by our behavior. addiction my friend is cunning, baffling, and oh so evil and powerful.
Is your true message to me that we cannot keep being her soft place to fall if we want her to change? It is very easy, and certainly the established pattern, for all of us to pick up the pieces of her life for her time and time again. I am sure we are all getting our own sick, self-satisfied highs off of feeling so "helpful"... I mean, what are we getting out of all this, if not that? It truly does feel like a sick merry-go-round after all this time, since she is not any better at all despite all our supposed help. Would you recommend that her husband not allow her to move back in until she cleans up? I truly don't know how close he is to the end of his rope with her. It is up to him, and he is very private. Nobody has a clue what he has gone through. He keeps a lot of her worst behavior to himself. Kay herself has told us more than her husband ever has about her lowest times. Maybe he won't tell because he feels others would find fault with his willingness to tolerate it. The whole situation is so very delicate. Maybe we are making it too easy for her to continue by taming everything down in order to make it easier for us to stomach, without really considering her at all. Everything is so convoluted.
Speaking of which, what is your opinion of telling the police what Kay has done? We are all petrified that due to her former record (after two years of not getting into trouble after her fifteen felony counts---all that time we thought she really was clean but she wasn't), her crimes were reduced down to one misdemeanor. In another year from that date, she is scheduled to re-appear in court, and if she hasn't gotten into any more trouble her record is supposed to be wiped clean. So she is supposed to go back to court in another six months or so. According to my dad, her one misdemeanor can't be converted back to 15 felonies. But if the police were to investigate her again based on one person turning her in, it is pretty likely that they would find a lot of evidence against her all over again, and she could even conceivably get another 15 felonies, and this time I have a hard time believing that she would escape jail time. We are all scared that she could get locked up for a really long time, which is why even though we feel she would benefit from being scared by entering the system for a couple of nights or at the most a month, we absolutely do NOT want her to end up in jail for an extended period of time. Do you know anything about this sort of sentencing?
my true mesage is that addiction affects everyone that interacts in the addicts life. everyone is affected by this sickness and the suggestion i give to love ones of an addict is to take care of themselves. whether it's through al-anon, nar-anon, family counseling, a substance abuse therapist, a minister, get some help for yourself.
you say kay has the potential to be her old self again and again i will speak my truth...failed recovery is responding to present-day situations with yesterday's emotional package-which you used back when the situation was totally different. serenity or living in a state of recovery is all about letting yesterday be yesterday and today be today. recovery is training ourselves by practicing daily disciplines to act in the present as the present and not from the emotional stance of a thousand past yesterdays.
dear precious anne - there is a solution for kay and all of you who love her.
in recovery we are past the past - our time is now!
a prayer for you and kay and all addicts on this board.
namaste'
sammy
________
Dear God,
I do not understand why I hang onto certain events and feelings from the past.
Intellectually I accept and understand that the past is over.
I honor my story and recognize the part that all of my yesterdays played
in bringing me to now.
I release and surrender past hurts, loves, jobs, wrongs, miscreations,
missed opportunities, experiences, joys, and sorrows.
I forgive myself and all other persons knowing that we did the best we knew
how.
Those times are over; the past is past.
I choose to be fully awake and alive in this moment.
With Your guidance, I open myself to the gift of the present.
Thank You, God.
Amen
peace is my gift.
Hi Sammy, Well I just wanted to let you know that I am feeling REALLY wonderful right now about Kay and her potential to stop drugs this time. I just spoke with her on the phone, and I really believe that she wants to quit for the first time ever. She says that her rock-bottom was getting kicked out of rehab for obtaining drugs... that was the first time she realized she could not tell herself that she was better than the other people in the program and that she did not have a problem. She says she actually threw her hands in the air and said, help me God... I can't do this anymore. She is going to NA every single day and for the first time she is "working the program" and wants to stop. She was actually up to 20 pills per day, and she was high the day she checked into rehab, and she says that she had no intention of quitting when she got there, and was only there to satisfy her husband's ultimatum. But when she first really saw herself and didn't want to be that person anymore, that is when she got caught with the drugs in the treatment center. Her problem now is that her family does not accept that that was her rock-bottom, and neither did I until we spoke on the phone for an hour just now. I do believe her, and she has said that so long as she respects herself she cannot allow the fact that those around her do not respect her or believe in her right now pull her downward. I HOPE AND PRAY that this is it for Kay. She is talking about praying, too. So that makes me feel even more hopeful. Her plan is to start working 20 hrs a week to start paying off the debt she owes her parents; that job will begin in mid-September. She says that she is petrified by the prospect of having to build a new person, since there isn't much of her current personality that she wants to keep.
So I am hoping that with the love and support of everyone around her she can do this. I am concerned that she makes sure that she continues to go to NA even if she works, and I am worried that her husband doesn't really grasp how very hard this is, and how miserable a person has to be insider to seek out drugs this way, and that he may not afford her the time she needs (and may need for the rest of her life) to get therapy to help her through this. But I don't know what I can do to impress this upon him without putting my nose where maybe it doesn't belong.
Thank you so much for your caring! Sincerely, Anne
So I am hoping that with the love and support of everyone around her she can do this. I am concerned that she makes sure that she continues to go to NA even if she works, and I am worried that her husband doesn't really grasp how very hard this is, and how miserable a person has to be insider to seek out drugs this way, and that he may not afford her the time she needs (and may need for the rest of her life) to get therapy to help her through this. But I don't know what I can do to impress this upon him without putting my nose where maybe it doesn't belong.
Thank you so much for your caring! Sincerely, Anne
Hi everyone, Just wanted to give further info on Kay... she called the rehab she was kicked out of and persuaded them to let her come back for another two weeks. She drove herself out there Sunday. I am REALLY happy that she did this, as I feel it shows how much she gained from being there the first time and that she feels she could learn a lot more about how to overpower her addiction. YAY!!!!!! -Anne
