Good Morning People- - 530 am - way early foe a saturday, but Im up so I put on a pot of coffee, and sat down here with my thinking hat on- -
How much do you know about methadone? If your a a patient, (or not)you need to know that when you hear these myths you can dispute them.
1. IS METHADONE MAINTENANCE TRADING ONE ADDICTION FOR ANOTHER?
I know Granny went over some of these before- but I want to post a few more and re-iterate want was already posted
Methadone is prescribed as in maintenance therapy, acts as a normalizer rather than a narcotic. The patient is able to function in every physical, emotional, and intellectual capacity without impairment. It is orally effective and does not produce mood swings, tranquilization or narcotic effects.
Methadone patients can obtain college educations, perform all types of intellectual and physical skills, marry and raise families. Methadone does not produce dependency as so other medications prescribed. For many addicts the alternative to methadone maintenance is: continued illicit use of heroin, criminal behavior, jail and premature deaths. Personally , for me , it was the very real possibiliy that my criminal behavior, would lead to a lengthy prison term- >> I dont want you guys to get the idea that I was some kind of wild, scary criminal out there, Im talking about shoplifting, driving offences, selling dope, etc... nothing violent, but added up- it would have led to a bunch of felonies- and that is trouble- -
METHADONE GETS INTO THE BONE MARROW, ROTS THE TEETH, AND DEPLETES CALCIUM.
That is absolutely false. Methadone has been used for the of treatment of opioid-dependency for more than thirty-five years and millions of patients . The effects of methadone on the health of those persons has probably been studied more thoroughly than for any other medication in all of medicine. Dr. Mary Jeanne Kreek, MD, , one of the best known and leading researchers in the field of methadone maintenance has summed up the findings
METHADONE IS MORE ADDICTING THAN HEROIN.
This is a persistent myth that was long ago disproved . A blind comparison study years ago at a federal facility for addiction treatment in Lexington, Kentucky , found that withdrawal symptoms actually were less severe in patients maintained on methadone than in those taking equivalent doses of short-acting opioids like heroin.
Because methadone is very long-acting, withdrawal from methadone does last much longer than withdrawal from short-acting opioids. Therefore, a person who has experienced "cold turkey" withdrawal separately from heroin and methadone might say that "kicking" methadone was worse-because it lasted longer.
However, gradual withdrawal from methadone, when properly done under medical supervision, can be virtually free of discomfort. On the other hand, patients who try to withdraw from methadone by themselves, on their own time and dose schedule, almost always experience undue discomfort and fail.
Also, some patients forget that the reason they came into methadone maintenance treatment was because they could not stay away from opioid drugs on their own. When they decide to leave methadone maintenance treatment and find they cannot just stop taking methadone, they blame the methadone rather than the heroin or other opioids that deranged their brain chemistry in the first place. For many former opioid -addicted persons, methadone is a lifelong medication necessary for stabilizing brain functions, much like a person with diabetes needs insulin every day to live a normal life.
If we can dispell some of these myths - it will help the stigme that follows- -
These tales have been told since the days - long before my time- - and I think its time to set many of these to rest- -
So if you feel any other tales are just untrue-(try to find documented proof)- post away-
peace/justice/respect
jack
Yeah Jack!!!!!
Couldnt of said it better my own self. Thank you.
Please add something for Mike on the heroin board. Hes a hurtin soul right now. I just gave him some options but I'm sure you will have more.
Granny
Couldnt of said it better my own self. Thank you.
Please add something for Mike on the heroin board. Hes a hurtin soul right now. I just gave him some options but I'm sure you will have more.
Granny
"METHADONE IS MORE ADDICTING THAN HEROIN.
"This is a persistent myth that was long ago disproved "
That was NOT my experience in the clinic over a 5 year period.
I saw people having great difficulty kicking methadone, which is why I would take them down very slowly.
Average maintenance dose in those years - 40-70 mg/day
Yes we had some on 130 mg/d - zoned out !
Sweating was the biggest side effect.
One of the problems we saw then was people using on top of their dose !
Do you consider them too ?
It was well known, at that time, that Methadone was more addicting and harder to kick than heroin and was shown over and over and over again, at that time.
On the other hand I am NOT bashing methadone. It is very useful, and people can live a normal life on it.
We used doses from 10mg - to 140 mg and higher.
We both detoxed and kept people on maintenance.
Now it depends on the kind of HEROIN you are talking about !
mexican black tar vs china white etc etc.
I don't know about that study and what kind of heroin the people were on and what doses they were taking, and if it was a properly controlled double blind scientific study.
There are lots of "studies" that ain't worth s***!
Those whom I treated were using China white heroin, very very strong !
"This is a persistent myth that was long ago disproved "
That was NOT my experience in the clinic over a 5 year period.
I saw people having great difficulty kicking methadone, which is why I would take them down very slowly.
Average maintenance dose in those years - 40-70 mg/day
Yes we had some on 130 mg/d - zoned out !
Sweating was the biggest side effect.
One of the problems we saw then was people using on top of their dose !
Do you consider them too ?
It was well known, at that time, that Methadone was more addicting and harder to kick than heroin and was shown over and over and over again, at that time.
On the other hand I am NOT bashing methadone. It is very useful, and people can live a normal life on it.
We used doses from 10mg - to 140 mg and higher.
We both detoxed and kept people on maintenance.
Now it depends on the kind of HEROIN you are talking about !
mexican black tar vs china white etc etc.
I don't know about that study and what kind of heroin the people were on and what doses they were taking, and if it was a properly controlled double blind scientific study.
There are lots of "studies" that ain't worth s***!
Those whom I treated were using China white heroin, very very strong !
MexicanTar Versus White china? Are you whacked out dude? I snorted 200 mg of oXY a day what in dear gods name does it matter who's Heroin-how would you know the purity unless you dealt it to your patients--You crack me up IRAB God Bless ya
-My oxy was pure --you ever deal doc?
Never got into white powder heroin--but oxy is IMO worse--Since were pals and coke freaks you really ever do coke? I mean real cocaine when that little solution is blue and you have 78%+ pure coke--Do you listen to anyone--if someone reads your threads they understand--Crack and freebase to different sick monsters--I guess I was still $$$ as I never hit crack in my life--Liked to snort real coke-
Have you ever tried to kill yourself? I did it once and the second time-called my shrink and they 72 me--
Right Now Mike if your reading this please go to detox ER hospital if you have no insurance if an ER tells you your going to hurt yourself they must put you in a phych ward for 72hrs --gives you proffesionals and time
That is a start for you--
Take care of yourself
Jeff
-My oxy was pure --you ever deal doc?
Never got into white powder heroin--but oxy is IMO worse--Since were pals and coke freaks you really ever do coke? I mean real cocaine when that little solution is blue and you have 78%+ pure coke--Do you listen to anyone--if someone reads your threads they understand--Crack and freebase to different sick monsters--I guess I was still $$$ as I never hit crack in my life--Liked to snort real coke-
Have you ever tried to kill yourself? I did it once and the second time-called my shrink and they 72 me--
Right Now Mike if your reading this please go to detox ER hospital if you have no insurance if an ER tells you your going to hurt yourself they must put you in a phych ward for 72hrs --gives you proffesionals and time
That is a start for you--
Take care of yourself
Jeff
"Right Now Mike if your reading this please go to detox ER hospital if you have no insurance if an ER tells you your going to hurt yourself they must put you in a phych ward for 72hrs --gives you proffesionals and time"
This is good advice to follow !!
Of course I did not know the purity !
No I have never dealed drugs either - Learn to have a little respect and tolerance for your fellow addict - basher. You don't need to brag about your use to me.
This is good advice to follow !!
Of course I did not know the purity !
No I have never dealed drugs either - Learn to have a little respect and tolerance for your fellow addict - basher. You don't need to brag about your use to me.
This thread is here to help Mike out
not to bash the doc !
not to bash the doc !
Then if your aa freakin shrink doctor why would you just not given mike the advice--?Instead of the rest?
It bothers me about all types of drugs and I do not need to read about white tar-? ETC Just call it Opiates as were all opiate addicts--
Do you understand?
Jeff
It bothers me about all types of drugs and I do not need to read about white tar-? ETC Just call it Opiates as were all opiate addicts--
Do you understand?
Jeff
I posted several messages to Mike in his thread to try to help him
I see you did too - that is good.
BUT be clear - I am not here to be bashed or for anyone's "entertainment" or to "crack them up"
I am here to help my fellow addicts whom I respect and have tolerance for and acceptance of.
And remember I am one of you !
I see you did too - that is good.
BUT be clear - I am not here to be bashed or for anyone's "entertainment" or to "crack them up"
I am here to help my fellow addicts whom I respect and have tolerance for and acceptance of.
And remember I am one of you !
Not to take sides here -(well maybe)- but Jeff has seen his share of shrinks- good & bad-
-and it isnt about the type of heroin- The china white from SE Asia that flooded NY during the late 60-to the 80.s -hasnt been as strong since then- but that is besides the point
The new drug epidemic in this country for the last few yrs has been oxycotin- its been well documented. Not that there is any lack of dope here , but there is a helluva dope problem in Europe and other countries overseas these days -
Since the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, poppy production has skyrocketed in that country. The Afghan heroin industry is by far the largest in the world. Most of it is earmarked for european cities, more so than the USA- (Mexico& S.America jumped in to meet the supply/demand economics of the US-
For the past several years, a group of Afghan and foreign businessmen has been trying to offer an alternative, by urging farmers to grow flowers for perfume instead of for drugs. But it has been a frustrating and costly project.- -Hell, what do you think you would grow? Afghan farmers are reluctant to switch to a new cash crop because they are accustomed to being paid upfront to grow poppies for opium traders.- and that is big dough compared to flowers, its not like you can grow a whole lot of sh8t in that land over there-
Back to the subject- kinda* *
The need for suboxone and other alternative medical therapies pretty much grew out of the explosion of Oxys- much which was written up, by greedy, criminal doctors, some who even distributed them all over the south -
-For over 40 yrs, no effort was really made to change the treatment for heroin addiction- -it was methadone* *
Now at least there are other options -
Hmm- I know I got way off track- but it aint the first time, and Im sure it wont be the last-
The thing with this site is once you start to post , you cant see the posts ahead of you- -so its easy to forget what others have said - especially for me-
9pmRamblings.
jack
Just call it Opiates as were all opiate addicts--
Jeff-
See ,I had to hit edit to see Jeffs post- and he is right-
and doc- Just curious> why do you always make sure you identify yourself as "the doc"- as in- bashing "the doc"- -Just by making sure we all know that, kinda shoots down that Im the same as you thing- IMO ,by announcing yourself as "the doc"- sometimes with a disclaimer- makes me think that even though we are all addicts , you want to make it clear that you apparenty got a medical degree somewhere.-
Hell, I dont sign Jack- former Production Manager- -> no need to respond, its just somethimg Ive noticed-
have a good night
-and it isnt about the type of heroin- The china white from SE Asia that flooded NY during the late 60-to the 80.s -hasnt been as strong since then- but that is besides the point
The new drug epidemic in this country for the last few yrs has been oxycotin- its been well documented. Not that there is any lack of dope here , but there is a helluva dope problem in Europe and other countries overseas these days -
Since the fall of the Taliban in Afghanistan, poppy production has skyrocketed in that country. The Afghan heroin industry is by far the largest in the world. Most of it is earmarked for european cities, more so than the USA- (Mexico& S.America jumped in to meet the supply/demand economics of the US-
For the past several years, a group of Afghan and foreign businessmen has been trying to offer an alternative, by urging farmers to grow flowers for perfume instead of for drugs. But it has been a frustrating and costly project.- -Hell, what do you think you would grow? Afghan farmers are reluctant to switch to a new cash crop because they are accustomed to being paid upfront to grow poppies for opium traders.- and that is big dough compared to flowers, its not like you can grow a whole lot of sh8t in that land over there-
Back to the subject- kinda* *
The need for suboxone and other alternative medical therapies pretty much grew out of the explosion of Oxys- much which was written up, by greedy, criminal doctors, some who even distributed them all over the south -
-For over 40 yrs, no effort was really made to change the treatment for heroin addiction- -it was methadone* *
Now at least there are other options -
Hmm- I know I got way off track- but it aint the first time, and Im sure it wont be the last-
The thing with this site is once you start to post , you cant see the posts ahead of you- -so its easy to forget what others have said - especially for me-
9pmRamblings.
jack
Just call it Opiates as were all opiate addicts--
Jeff-
See ,I had to hit edit to see Jeffs post- and he is right-
and doc- Just curious> why do you always make sure you identify yourself as "the doc"- as in- bashing "the doc"- -Just by making sure we all know that, kinda shoots down that Im the same as you thing- IMO ,by announcing yourself as "the doc"- sometimes with a disclaimer- makes me think that even though we are all addicts , you want to make it clear that you apparenty got a medical degree somewhere.-
Hell, I dont sign Jack- former Production Manager- -> no need to respond, its just somethimg Ive noticed-
have a good night
well geez...i only ever got Persian...wonder where that leaves me...lol...this is ridiculous...it doesn't matter what the hell type your using...its about using and staying off of it...Thanks for the Info Jack and Sub...
and Irab...sometimes you do ok...its your experiences as an addict that counts here though...not your knowledge of something you've never been on...k ?...keep it limited to the things you've experienced being on...how u felt as an addict, what you went through...how you got off...that type of stuff...just be an addict here...
Con
and Irab...sometimes you do ok...its your experiences as an addict that counts here though...not your knowledge of something you've never been on...k ?...keep it limited to the things you've experienced being on...how u felt as an addict, what you went through...how you got off...that type of stuff...just be an addict here...
Con
Well i know "con" means well and I enjoy and learn from his posts too and he offers good advice.
I quote him often.
But: my response is " Live and Let Live". Learn more tolerance , and acceptance.
Stop trying to manage me and my posts.
My posts are born out my experience, strength and hope , and come from my addict and from my doc days both. I am unable to separate the 2 and don't wish to.
I am here to help and to share as you are.
Peace, brother
I quote him often.
But: my response is " Live and Let Live". Learn more tolerance , and acceptance.
Stop trying to manage me and my posts.
My posts are born out my experience, strength and hope , and come from my addict and from my doc days both. I am unable to separate the 2 and don't wish to.
I am here to help and to share as you are.
Peace, brother
Well, doc, maybe if you didn't feel the need to list all those "credentials" to let us know how important you are, people would be a little more accepting of you.
Well i know "con" means well and I enjoy and learn from his posts too and he offers good advice.
First of all irab- "con" is a women- so you really dont know her at all do you?-
-All you,ve done since you discovered this site is announce you have some kind of medical degree from some country out there, repeat over and over the same mantra of follow MY messages of" strength and hope"- - its all generic stuff.
I speak to a few people off this site- (e-mails and such)- and it seems that just when you seem to get to understanding how the board works- - You throw up that "Stop bashing me ,because Im a doctor"- then in the same breath , you say Im an addict like you"
Ya cant have it both ways on an Mdone forum- -you cant appear that you know more, are somehow above or superior than others, and then try to say >but Im just the same as you guys-
By doing that ,people can see the hypocrisy. Trying to post generic XA teachings and pass it off as your advise is just silly-
I for one, find it exhausting to come to this board, and see that you have a need to constantly have a say or the last word in every thread- -and to be honest (I know you like honesty) I dont think Im alone feeling this way
It takes so much away from our agenda here -which is to educate, help, and just listen .
No-one is qualified to tell another what he or she should do. We can suggest, point out similarities in our stories, help with different policies that some of us may be more familiar with, but generally we do not tell another what they should or should not do regarding taking their meds.
Thats all I have to say, be part of the opiate recovery community if you need to be- -but you might want to stop this thinking that this community needs you because you call yourself "the doc"
These are just suggestions on how we all can get back to the purpose of this site- too much energy has been wasted lately.
Think about it- and have a nice day of course
First of all irab- "con" is a women- so you really dont know her at all do you?-
-All you,ve done since you discovered this site is announce you have some kind of medical degree from some country out there, repeat over and over the same mantra of follow MY messages of" strength and hope"- - its all generic stuff.
I speak to a few people off this site- (e-mails and such)- and it seems that just when you seem to get to understanding how the board works- - You throw up that "Stop bashing me ,because Im a doctor"- then in the same breath , you say Im an addict like you"
Ya cant have it both ways on an Mdone forum- -you cant appear that you know more, are somehow above or superior than others, and then try to say >but Im just the same as you guys-
By doing that ,people can see the hypocrisy. Trying to post generic XA teachings and pass it off as your advise is just silly-
I for one, find it exhausting to come to this board, and see that you have a need to constantly have a say or the last word in every thread- -and to be honest (I know you like honesty) I dont think Im alone feeling this way
It takes so much away from our agenda here -which is to educate, help, and just listen .
No-one is qualified to tell another what he or she should do. We can suggest, point out similarities in our stories, help with different policies that some of us may be more familiar with, but generally we do not tell another what they should or should not do regarding taking their meds.
Thats all I have to say, be part of the opiate recovery community if you need to be- -but you might want to stop this thinking that this community needs you because you call yourself "the doc"
These are just suggestions on how we all can get back to the purpose of this site- too much energy has been wasted lately.
Think about it- and have a nice day of course
Jack, you are my favorite! Hey you, Irab! I was really starting to have some hope for you, like you were just beginning to become tolerable and I felt like we might get our board back. You say that you were an addict and you were a doc and you cannot change these things? Why not reinvent yourself?? Ya know, come through to the other side? You are not the doc you were and you're not quite the addict you were and now you are this compilation of experience and you have resurfaced as the amazing IRAB. Part doc, Part human...I mean part addict?? Ya know Jack and similar people on these boards have become well respected and their advice is highly sought after not because they spout out a list of qualifying credentials, and not because they bark and those with less clean time but because they have earned the respect they are shown here! This did not happen overnight! They did not seek this out neither! They have been patient and knowledgable examples of what sobriety and a healthy lifestyle can do for an addict. We, the beginners, long for similar lives of peace and sanity. I am going to stop now but please, I am begging you, STOP being the "doc"! Don't hide behind any of your certificates anymore. I believe you can find the courage to be more than what it says on a piece of paper. I am sure many people here share my opinion. Peace out, Jax
My apologies to "con"
I now know she is a woman.
peace, sister !
I now know she is a woman.
peace, sister !
Sorry, Guys and Gals:
The doc is a part of me, as the addict is a part of me.
My signature shows all of me,
What you get are not parts of me - it is All of me, and my energy left
I am almost 70 years old with Bad heart disease so
I don't need aggrivation, but would appreciate acceptance, and tolerance.
Thank You for your posts - we are free to disagree !
But I respect and honor all my fellow addicts.
I am still 1 of you.
Now, perhaps enough of this, and back to business and your board, where I share the honor to participate.
Peace to All & Blessings.
The doc is a part of me, as the addict is a part of me.
My signature shows all of me,
What you get are not parts of me - it is All of me, and my energy left
I am almost 70 years old with Bad heart disease so
I don't need aggrivation, but would appreciate acceptance, and tolerance.
Thank You for your posts - we are free to disagree !
But I respect and honor all my fellow addicts.
I am still 1 of you.
Now, perhaps enough of this, and back to business and your board, where I share the honor to participate.
Peace to All & Blessings.
sigh...Thanks Jack...
Mike how are you doing?
Jeff
Jeff
Hi jack
thank u so much for your postings they are very educational and helps a lot
i told my son to try and comunicate on this blog with u and con and granny as u
Guys r great help. If i see a post by doc i scroll past it because
i find nothing he says helpfull as he repeats everything somebodyelse say
sorry doc
p
thank u so much for your postings they are very educational and helps a lot
i told my son to try and comunicate on this blog with u and con and granny as u
Guys r great help. If i see a post by doc i scroll past it because
i find nothing he says helpfull as he repeats everything somebodyelse say
sorry doc
p
Hey Jack, thanks for this info.
Only thing I will say is that I have to disagree with it being a myth regarding methadone rotting your teeth. I for one have absolutely had teeth problems due to Methadone. Here in the UK, you now get free dental treatment if you have been or are being prescribed methadone. I know it's not just down to Methadone as the crazy lifestyle on Heroin also helped screw up my teeth. I only know about this stuff because I went to an emergency dentist as I wasn't registered with one as I hadn't bothered about my teeth in a long time. Anyway, had an abscess then my front tooth snapped in half. So went to get treatment and admitted my drug history as I was so embarassed at the state of my teeth. When I said I'd been on Methadone on and off for six years, the dentist said I didn't have to pay for my treatment as is now the case for Methadone patients. I was shocked so asked more about it and found this out. I've also seen posters up in surgeries since re the dental clinic on a set day for addicts in treatment on Methadone and it was confirmed by my drug worker at the drug treatment clinic. They now try to prescribe sugar free stuff whenever possible here as the sugary stuff caused so many problems. I know it's bad oral hygene as well as the sugar content that's caused the problems but just something people should be aware of if they don't get sugar free stuff.....
Only problem I know of assosciated with the sugar free stuff is terrible wind. My bf loves this however and finds it very amusing!!!! :o)
Anyways, thanks for the facts. I used to be anti methadone as I was on Suboxone a lot of the time and was scared of all the horror stories I'd heard about methadone until I screwed up once too many times on Subs and my drug worker wouldn't give me anything except methadone. I've been on Methadone or Subs pretty much flitting between the two over the last 7 years. Both are good in different ways and I can honestly say that they both have pro's and cons but anything which keeps you from using/committing crime/lying etc. is a good thing and each person should make their own decisions arming themselves with as much info as possible. This board looks like it will enable people to do that so thanks for getting it put up after a long wait.
Love n stuff
Linz x
Only thing I will say is that I have to disagree with it being a myth regarding methadone rotting your teeth. I for one have absolutely had teeth problems due to Methadone. Here in the UK, you now get free dental treatment if you have been or are being prescribed methadone. I know it's not just down to Methadone as the crazy lifestyle on Heroin also helped screw up my teeth. I only know about this stuff because I went to an emergency dentist as I wasn't registered with one as I hadn't bothered about my teeth in a long time. Anyway, had an abscess then my front tooth snapped in half. So went to get treatment and admitted my drug history as I was so embarassed at the state of my teeth. When I said I'd been on Methadone on and off for six years, the dentist said I didn't have to pay for my treatment as is now the case for Methadone patients. I was shocked so asked more about it and found this out. I've also seen posters up in surgeries since re the dental clinic on a set day for addicts in treatment on Methadone and it was confirmed by my drug worker at the drug treatment clinic. They now try to prescribe sugar free stuff whenever possible here as the sugary stuff caused so many problems. I know it's bad oral hygene as well as the sugar content that's caused the problems but just something people should be aware of if they don't get sugar free stuff.....
Only problem I know of assosciated with the sugar free stuff is terrible wind. My bf loves this however and finds it very amusing!!!! :o)
Anyways, thanks for the facts. I used to be anti methadone as I was on Suboxone a lot of the time and was scared of all the horror stories I'd heard about methadone until I screwed up once too many times on Subs and my drug worker wouldn't give me anything except methadone. I've been on Methadone or Subs pretty much flitting between the two over the last 7 years. Both are good in different ways and I can honestly say that they both have pro's and cons but anything which keeps you from using/committing crime/lying etc. is a good thing and each person should make their own decisions arming themselves with as much info as possible. This board looks like it will enable people to do that so thanks for getting it put up after a long wait.
Love n stuff
Linz x
