August wrote, "We have to be concerned that we might not make it back." That strikes me as the simple truth of it. And slips/relapses are plenty scary -- not only to the person who uses, but also to others in the rooms of NA/AA who may have sat next to them. We want certainty, guarantees. It's natural. Thus the tendency to blame the relapse on deficiencies in that person's program -- they stopped going to as many meetings, didn't fully accept the Judeo-Christian program of spiritual awakening, never truly surrendered.......
Showing compassion, acceptance, and respect for those who "go out" does not, in my view, send the wrong message to others in the rooms. If peer pressure (fear of public embarassment in the rooms of AA/NA) is what's keeping a person sober/clean, then they're probably on shaky ground anyway. So praising someone who has relapsed (but quit again) doesn't seem, to me, to imply that its "ok." It shows respect for the disease as well as the person, and it implies a healthy dose of humilty when it comes to our own addiction.
I think that is abosolutely correct. Obvously relapse is a frightening, sensitive subject for all.
Shaming an addict who went out is not the right approach. I respect my sponsor for having the courage to own up and step forward.
Likewise, I think that a lot of addicts engage in a terible kind of self flaggelation around relapse that is also unhealthy. This is where a lot of the "don't beat yourself up too bad talk comes from." Folks have a natural desire to help ease that sort of pain. I respect my sponsor for simply not inviting this kind of comfort from others. It takes a certain amount of self respect to not invite others to validate us or our inappropriate conduct as an emotional salve.
I have seen addicts with a lot of time lose everything to a relapse--I am talkng being just as raw, vulnerable and out of proportion as any newby who walked through the door. These are the ones who seemed to have taken their relapse to a new and lower bottom. These are the ones that we find dead, or in jail, or if they are lucky, broken and humbled at the doors of the meeting room.
I have seen others who picked up a white chip as a symbol of doing what they must to do to honor a program that might have ceased working because they ceased working it. This latter group needn't find a fresh bottom in ordert to return to sobriety. This latter group leads by demonstrating an example of honesty, willingness and humilty.
There are lines, to be drawn, delicate balances to be respected and much like the Supreme Court on the topic of pornography (I cannot define obscenity but I know it when I see it), I think that we addicts need to learn how to offer support without throwing a pity party. I think we can offer support without throwing the concepts of integrity, accountabiliy and commitment out with the bathwater.
None, I hope you know how much I respect you and your program. You are one of the rocks on this forum. I trust we can exchange viewpoints with the goal of mutual benefit from the exchange.
All the best,
August
Shaming an addict who went out is not the right approach. I respect my sponsor for having the courage to own up and step forward.
Likewise, I think that a lot of addicts engage in a terible kind of self flaggelation around relapse that is also unhealthy. This is where a lot of the "don't beat yourself up too bad talk comes from." Folks have a natural desire to help ease that sort of pain. I respect my sponsor for simply not inviting this kind of comfort from others. It takes a certain amount of self respect to not invite others to validate us or our inappropriate conduct as an emotional salve.
I have seen addicts with a lot of time lose everything to a relapse--I am talkng being just as raw, vulnerable and out of proportion as any newby who walked through the door. These are the ones who seemed to have taken their relapse to a new and lower bottom. These are the ones that we find dead, or in jail, or if they are lucky, broken and humbled at the doors of the meeting room.
I have seen others who picked up a white chip as a symbol of doing what they must to do to honor a program that might have ceased working because they ceased working it. This latter group needn't find a fresh bottom in ordert to return to sobriety. This latter group leads by demonstrating an example of honesty, willingness and humilty.
There are lines, to be drawn, delicate balances to be respected and much like the Supreme Court on the topic of pornography (I cannot define obscenity but I know it when I see it), I think that we addicts need to learn how to offer support without throwing a pity party. I think we can offer support without throwing the concepts of integrity, accountabiliy and commitment out with the bathwater.
None, I hope you know how much I respect you and your program. You are one of the rocks on this forum. I trust we can exchange viewpoints with the goal of mutual benefit from the exchange.
All the best,
August
Ditto. Agreed my friend.
Bringing forward this thread to provide an update. My former sponsor has continued to struggle since his relapse three years ago. He started coming around to play guitar for a while, but many things about him had changed.
His wife had divorced him and he seemed un-fazed. He had lost his job but that was no big deal. He nearly got a job from a mutual friend of ours who made a lot of money in the Tech Boom, but our friend, a shrewd judge of character, abruptly withdrew the offer. Our millionaire friend was always quirky, he says with a shrug. He had to move out of his apartment, but had talked someone in the program into letting him live rent free at his home while he was in Iraq. Then that deal fell through at the last moment.
Last time I saw him, he was at my house playing guitar. He seemed spacey in a way that addicts (this one, any way) recognize. Nothing was a big deal, it was all cool. His world was crumbling and he was completely stuffing his feelings. He mentioned a business deal and that he was going to let me in on. I have been around too long to be played and he sensed it without my saying anything. That was the last time I saw him, just over a year ago.
I learned he was sponsoring someone, with a couple of years under his belt. Sounded like good news to me in that it implied that he was clean and sober himself. Then I learned though the sponsee that he was also charging him some horrific sum for business consulting services of dubious value.
A few months later, I learned that he borrowed the sponsees car, promising to assume the lease payments. He failed to pay and when confronted with the fact that he had run up three grand in lease payments, he apologized eloquently and wrote a check for a grand. The check bounced, of course. It fell on me to explain that it matters not whether our mutual friend is using or not, and second guessing the issue would be extraordinarily unhealthy for all involved. What was very clear is that he is not able to be honest with himself and that makes him a dangerous person to be around.
Until last night, I thought he had left town for good to be closer to a grandchild. I learned last night that he was back in town, had hooked up with a wealthy woman he just happened to have run into at an At Anon meeting and she is now two thousand dollars poorer for the experience.
Word travels fast in our home group and I have learned that he is homeless. He is living in a tent and has hit up everyone for money that would lend him any. He has not called me. His health condition is chronic and incurable, and he certainly cannot afford medical care if he cannot afford rent. He has been in and out of detox twice in the last year and now feels that he is beyond any help that AA can offer.
He is much loved and opinions differ as to what to do to help him. Some feel that he should be confronted, that we intervene and talk some sense into him. Others, particularly those with Al Anon programs, feel this would not be a good idea. For a number of reasons too complex to recount here, I side with the non-inteventionalists.
This guy is my Ebby, for those of you who have read the Big Book. His words and guidance offered me a shot at redemption that I might not have otherwise found. He taught me the principle of Rigorous Honesty. One of my favorite sayings from him is that commitment is what you have after the inspiration wears off. He was kind, but no nonsense. I have seen him in dire straits and on top of the world. In either instance, he was honest in his words and conduct. This guy really Walked the Walk.
And now he is Rat in a Drain Ditch, Caught on a Limb. Perhaps that caring man, of high integrity is still in there. I dont know. If he is still in there, he is buried beneath a mountain of denial.
I cannot help but remember a movie I once saw long ago about Vietnam where a soldier steps on a pressure release mine. As soon as he lifts his foot, the mine will blow him to bits. His buddy moves to help and the Sarge stops him. You are looking at a dead man the Sarge explains. Sadly, that is the situation I find myself in. My friend, a great guy who has touched a lot of people, including me, is dying. It is not going to be pretty.
So those of you who want to relapse, go ahead and do so. I certainly will not try to stop you, as if anyone could. Just remember, you may have another slip in you, but you may be fresh out of recoveries.
If you are of the praying sort, pray for this guy and every one of us who fails to find his way back to solid ground.
His wife had divorced him and he seemed un-fazed. He had lost his job but that was no big deal. He nearly got a job from a mutual friend of ours who made a lot of money in the Tech Boom, but our friend, a shrewd judge of character, abruptly withdrew the offer. Our millionaire friend was always quirky, he says with a shrug. He had to move out of his apartment, but had talked someone in the program into letting him live rent free at his home while he was in Iraq. Then that deal fell through at the last moment.
Last time I saw him, he was at my house playing guitar. He seemed spacey in a way that addicts (this one, any way) recognize. Nothing was a big deal, it was all cool. His world was crumbling and he was completely stuffing his feelings. He mentioned a business deal and that he was going to let me in on. I have been around too long to be played and he sensed it without my saying anything. That was the last time I saw him, just over a year ago.
I learned he was sponsoring someone, with a couple of years under his belt. Sounded like good news to me in that it implied that he was clean and sober himself. Then I learned though the sponsee that he was also charging him some horrific sum for business consulting services of dubious value.
A few months later, I learned that he borrowed the sponsees car, promising to assume the lease payments. He failed to pay and when confronted with the fact that he had run up three grand in lease payments, he apologized eloquently and wrote a check for a grand. The check bounced, of course. It fell on me to explain that it matters not whether our mutual friend is using or not, and second guessing the issue would be extraordinarily unhealthy for all involved. What was very clear is that he is not able to be honest with himself and that makes him a dangerous person to be around.
Until last night, I thought he had left town for good to be closer to a grandchild. I learned last night that he was back in town, had hooked up with a wealthy woman he just happened to have run into at an At Anon meeting and she is now two thousand dollars poorer for the experience.
Word travels fast in our home group and I have learned that he is homeless. He is living in a tent and has hit up everyone for money that would lend him any. He has not called me. His health condition is chronic and incurable, and he certainly cannot afford medical care if he cannot afford rent. He has been in and out of detox twice in the last year and now feels that he is beyond any help that AA can offer.
He is much loved and opinions differ as to what to do to help him. Some feel that he should be confronted, that we intervene and talk some sense into him. Others, particularly those with Al Anon programs, feel this would not be a good idea. For a number of reasons too complex to recount here, I side with the non-inteventionalists.
This guy is my Ebby, for those of you who have read the Big Book. His words and guidance offered me a shot at redemption that I might not have otherwise found. He taught me the principle of Rigorous Honesty. One of my favorite sayings from him is that commitment is what you have after the inspiration wears off. He was kind, but no nonsense. I have seen him in dire straits and on top of the world. In either instance, he was honest in his words and conduct. This guy really Walked the Walk.
And now he is Rat in a Drain Ditch, Caught on a Limb. Perhaps that caring man, of high integrity is still in there. I dont know. If he is still in there, he is buried beneath a mountain of denial.
I cannot help but remember a movie I once saw long ago about Vietnam where a soldier steps on a pressure release mine. As soon as he lifts his foot, the mine will blow him to bits. His buddy moves to help and the Sarge stops him. You are looking at a dead man the Sarge explains. Sadly, that is the situation I find myself in. My friend, a great guy who has touched a lot of people, including me, is dying. It is not going to be pretty.
So those of you who want to relapse, go ahead and do so. I certainly will not try to stop you, as if anyone could. Just remember, you may have another slip in you, but you may be fresh out of recoveries.
If you are of the praying sort, pray for this guy and every one of us who fails to find his way back to solid ground.
Hey AW! So good to see you! Hope you are doing as good as you sound.
August
Surprised to see your name . Hope all is well spiritually & mentally,and physically.
Your friend is in a bad place, my thoughts, prayers, & positive vibes will be sent out tonight- When hearing stories like the one above you can't help thinking "there but for the grace of God go I."
muchpeace&respect
jack
Surprised to see your name . Hope all is well spiritually & mentally,and physically.
Your friend is in a bad place, my thoughts, prayers, & positive vibes will be sent out tonight- When hearing stories like the one above you can't help thinking "there but for the grace of God go I."
muchpeace&respect
jack
It is you!
I remember this about your friend...so sad. But not surprizing. How many of us have traveled this road. Some just don't make it home.
I remember this about your friend...so sad. But not surprizing. How many of us have traveled this road. Some just don't make it home.
wow, what an amazing story. Thanx for sharing that with us. Just proves how powerful a disease addiction really is. You can never let your guard down and even when it seems like you are doing the right thing and following dr.'s orders or seeking the right path, it just takes one trip/slip and you are right back on that dark road to hell. Having been to quite a few meetings to support my 12 step friends, I see this quite often and applaud those who have the guts to pick themselves up and get sober again. What a truly amazing human being...
Good to see you post August, but I'm sorry to see that your former sponsor has continued down the road he's on. Your words echo acceptance, but not peace, which shows your humanity -- as your writings always do.
None
None
None, Jack, nice to hear from both of you. I hope you are both well. Bikeman, thanks for your note as well!
August
August
oops, Carol, I forgot you for a moment. I hope all is well with you.
AW
AW
