He told me my prospects were good to getting some child support. When I was really worried about him fighting me for custody. yada yada. Well the holidays are over and he hasn't and won't do a thing for them financially and I have hit the end of my rope. Initially I wasn't so sure of doing anything and then it came to me in waves that I had to stand up for these kids. They are getting the shaft! He is supporting her kids ie: house, food, etc. But not his own. I am sure she gets child support but you know what I mean they do not go with out. I am typing in anger too mind you so I am being biased and catty. Anyhow that is it. I made my appointment I have my money (for the most part) for the retainer and I am doing it. I am scared and I hope I am doing this for the right reasons. Motive you know? I sound mean right now but in reality I am tired ot having to fight with him over shoes or medications all the little things. He just got me going tonight I am trying not to let it rent space in my mind but he has hastled me enough. He knows that generally I will back down and think that it is not worth the fight. That is how I have been he can make me feel so much lower than him. You guys I am scared and my feelings are all anxious and torn up. I can ask and ask but I don't know if I am doing the right thing. I've asked God and I think I have the right answer but when the pressure is applied. Like him being so damn stubborn I get all weak and crumbly. My kids need and deserve this don't they? I have talked in circles but I need to process this anyone around?
Jane,
You are absolutely, positively, beyond the shadow of a doubt doing the right thing...He is their father...It is his responsibility to support those children; period. If he is not doing so he should be made to do so, all back payments right up to date or suffer the consequences. There shouldn't be a question in your mind and if there is? Fuhgedaboutit!!!
There is nothing to be afraid of in my opinion...(what are you scared of?)
You couldn't get more right about this if you tried...Go get em!
Jan
You are absolutely, positively, beyond the shadow of a doubt doing the right thing...He is their father...It is his responsibility to support those children; period. If he is not doing so he should be made to do so, all back payments right up to date or suffer the consequences. There shouldn't be a question in your mind and if there is? Fuhgedaboutit!!!
There is nothing to be afraid of in my opinion...(what are you scared of?)
You couldn't get more right about this if you tried...Go get em!
Jan
hey there
Keep your eye on the ball..you know if your doing the right thing for you and your kids...
"JUST Jane" and "JUST Jody"..both having spousal problems and both feel their husbands make them feel bad about themselves...both call themselves a name that starts with JUST...
Hope one day you will have all this behind you and you will want to change your post name to something more empowering..lol
Hugs
Ali
Keep your eye on the ball..you know if your doing the right thing for you and your kids...
"JUST Jane" and "JUST Jody"..both having spousal problems and both feel their husbands make them feel bad about themselves...both call themselves a name that starts with JUST...
Hope one day you will have all this behind you and you will want to change your post name to something more empowering..lol
Hugs
Ali
You're being too nice about it, Jane. If he really cared he would be proud to support his children. You didn't make the kids by yourself and the least he can do is help provide for them. Trust me, I speak from experience, if you let them get away with it, they will. Be firm from the get go and let him know you mean business. If you don't you'll spend years this way.
Your children are precious and they deserve all the things they need.
Take care.
xxxxxooooo
Your children are precious and they deserve all the things they need.
Take care.
xxxxxooooo
Jane..I completely know where you are coming from and it is a tough call. I know for me I never saw much of anything support wise (or anything else) from my kids sperm donor. I worked harder to give them more....today they know that and love and appreciate me to no end. But that did not help me then. Funny thing is is that if you ask them today if they were aware of any of the struggling and they were oblivious to it. I did my job and am grateful for having them safe with me.
Having been through this I would most definitely fight for the right to have financial support for them. I know you are scared and you have every right to be....you are an awesome mom and he knows it. I think he thinks you won't take it to court because he feels he is better than you...and you might have to explain your problems with addiction. You have nothing to be ashamed of or to hide from. If anything you are a fine example as to what can happen when you address a problem rather than sweep it under the carpet.
Have you spoke with him in private about the possibility of him paying child support? I am guessing that you have...give him a chance to pay merely because its the right thing to do. If he doesn't then tell him that you will be taking it to the next level. My kids Dad owed me 10's of thousands of dollars...I put him on maintenance enforcement so I wouldn't have to deal with the humiliation of chasing him down every month asking him for money. Sometimes I swore he liked it...it was his way of getting to me. Well I fixed that and over the years the debt just added up.
About 3 years ago I took 7000 in cash from his Dad to get them off his back...what a joke! But I thought and still do he might die any moment and then I would really be hooped....but he owed about 60grand...anyway my point is definitely go forward and get a court ordered maintenance so that you don't have to pay bill collector each month....that sucks.
I am so praying for you honey.....you and your kids deserve it...just ticks me off to no end when some men think that they don't have be responsible financially for there kids.
We have had Kearra for most of her life....yet we have never seen a penny from her parents...for nothing! Thats ok....but I just don't know how one lives with themselves. Now I am rambling on...lol....
Just wanted to say that I support you 100% and don't let him intimidate you...just because you had a problem and solved it....yeah thats a real bad example!!!
Having been through this I would most definitely fight for the right to have financial support for them. I know you are scared and you have every right to be....you are an awesome mom and he knows it. I think he thinks you won't take it to court because he feels he is better than you...and you might have to explain your problems with addiction. You have nothing to be ashamed of or to hide from. If anything you are a fine example as to what can happen when you address a problem rather than sweep it under the carpet.
Have you spoke with him in private about the possibility of him paying child support? I am guessing that you have...give him a chance to pay merely because its the right thing to do. If he doesn't then tell him that you will be taking it to the next level. My kids Dad owed me 10's of thousands of dollars...I put him on maintenance enforcement so I wouldn't have to deal with the humiliation of chasing him down every month asking him for money. Sometimes I swore he liked it...it was his way of getting to me. Well I fixed that and over the years the debt just added up.
About 3 years ago I took 7000 in cash from his Dad to get them off his back...what a joke! But I thought and still do he might die any moment and then I would really be hooped....but he owed about 60grand...anyway my point is definitely go forward and get a court ordered maintenance so that you don't have to pay bill collector each month....that sucks.
I am so praying for you honey.....you and your kids deserve it...just ticks me off to no end when some men think that they don't have be responsible financially for there kids.
We have had Kearra for most of her life....yet we have never seen a penny from her parents...for nothing! Thats ok....but I just don't know how one lives with themselves. Now I am rambling on...lol....
Just wanted to say that I support you 100% and don't let him intimidate you...just because you had a problem and solved it....yeah thats a real bad example!!!
ali- Very observant. No kidding! Although just as a side line my real name is Mary Jane I changed it to just Jane in Junior high. My parents must have thought it was just cute that I was being so in charge of my life or something so they and thier friends would always call me just jane as a way of teasingly respecting my decision. Initially it was empowering after that....it slowly turned to the other. Side bar over. Now you know. LOL
Kat- That is just it. I am tired of fighting with him from scraps it is just BS and they are my kids if I don't stand up for them who will. I just hate that I can see us at our daughters wedding not being able to talk to one another just because of this that would hurt me bad.
Kee Kee- That is it in a nutshell he does try to intimidate me and when he does I am back to the basket case that I was when I was with him. Thak you for support it does help to hear from someone who has been there. I am scared.
Jan- That is the no nonsense thing I needed to hear that is just it whats right is right ,,,Right? It's the right thing!
My question to myself is why does it feel wrong??? Is it fear? I've got to Face Everything and Recover. I want to go into my next relationship feeling not like a second hand sweater but as an good "normal" person with normal rights and privelages.
Thanks for letting me vent you will probably hear from me a lot about this so bear with me I need you guys so I can process it all. Hugsss!
Kat- That is just it. I am tired of fighting with him from scraps it is just BS and they are my kids if I don't stand up for them who will. I just hate that I can see us at our daughters wedding not being able to talk to one another just because of this that would hurt me bad.
Kee Kee- That is it in a nutshell he does try to intimidate me and when he does I am back to the basket case that I was when I was with him. Thak you for support it does help to hear from someone who has been there. I am scared.
Jan- That is the no nonsense thing I needed to hear that is just it whats right is right ,,,Right? It's the right thing!
My question to myself is why does it feel wrong??? Is it fear? I've got to Face Everything and Recover. I want to go into my next relationship feeling not like a second hand sweater but as an good "normal" person with normal rights and privelages.
Thanks for letting me vent you will probably hear from me a lot about this so bear with me I need you guys so I can process it all. Hugsss!
Hey Jane, if you don't force him to do the right thing now, by the time your daughter gets married you won't be speaking anyway. You'll be so bitter over all the years you had to struggle with no help. It's embarrassing how many thousands my ex owes me in back child support. When I got remarried I didn't fight with him over it. I figured if he didn't love his kids anymore than that, then the hell with him. We could get by just fine without his measly child support.
But looking back on it, I did my kids a disservice. I allowed their father to be a dead beat. They grew up with no respect for him at all. (he doesn't deserve any, imho) I wish I'd fought him tooth and nail to make him pay. I just didn't want to go through the hassle of it all and then my pride stepped in too. If I could go back in time to where you are right now, I'd be firm and make sure my boys father supported them.
Good luck.
xxxxxoooooo
But looking back on it, I did my kids a disservice. I allowed their father to be a dead beat. They grew up with no respect for him at all. (he doesn't deserve any, imho) I wish I'd fought him tooth and nail to make him pay. I just didn't want to go through the hassle of it all and then my pride stepped in too. If I could go back in time to where you are right now, I'd be firm and make sure my boys father supported them.
Good luck.
xxxxxoooooo
Jane- If I remember right, you don't have legal custody of your kids though they do live with you, correct? I think I said this before. Yes, he should pay. Right now, he has no legal responsibility to pay(as the court thinks they live with him). Legal and moral responsibilities are to different things. Rather than pay, expect a custody battle. Just a warning. It comes down to your past history, his, etc. You HAVE established the kids in YOUR home and that is extremely important to the courts. You need to have a motion filed for change of custody before you can ask for support. The court HAS to recognize you have physical custody before they will issue you a support order.
Your right Danny. We have joint legal and him physical. But he hasn't had them with him for over 6 months. And too your right it will probably boil down to a custody thing for sure. Although in trying to discuss this with him he thinks I should pay him back support. Even though they have not been with him primarily. And I did talk to the lawyer about all of that & he told me the court weighed in my favor. So right now formost on his mind is trying to get back support from me and the lawyer told me that is not possible since the orginal divorce decree said could be considered at a later date....
Anyway, Can I just back out if it gets realy ugly or once you file do you have to follow through? I can ask the lawyer when I go I guess. Thanks for reminding me about that anyway. There is always the threat that it could turn to custody thing. But I really don't think his wife is hip to that. She has found out how he is. Gone all the time and leaving her with the kids constantly and to boot they are not hers so she looses it on my kids. She did it last weekend. I guess if he wants to stay married he has to consider her feelings and it is becoming increasingly clear what those feelings are. I've given her the benefit of the doubt as far as freaking out last weekend. Simply put I empathize with how she felt.
I will try and have tried to work it out with him out of court that is my prefrence so I am not all hell bent to take it to the extreme but I want to know that I have the balls to fight for my kids' rights. Without being ashamed of myself. I keep doing what I need to do to stay right sized about the hole issue I have not forgot my humility. It just boarders on not feeling like any of us deserve it and I don't like that
Is that a person thing that wont be solved by this?
Jane
Anyway, Can I just back out if it gets realy ugly or once you file do you have to follow through? I can ask the lawyer when I go I guess. Thanks for reminding me about that anyway. There is always the threat that it could turn to custody thing. But I really don't think his wife is hip to that. She has found out how he is. Gone all the time and leaving her with the kids constantly and to boot they are not hers so she looses it on my kids. She did it last weekend. I guess if he wants to stay married he has to consider her feelings and it is becoming increasingly clear what those feelings are. I've given her the benefit of the doubt as far as freaking out last weekend. Simply put I empathize with how she felt.
I will try and have tried to work it out with him out of court that is my prefrence so I am not all hell bent to take it to the extreme but I want to know that I have the balls to fight for my kids' rights. Without being ashamed of myself. I keep doing what I need to do to stay right sized about the hole issue I have not forgot my humility. It just boarders on not feeling like any of us deserve it and I don't like that
Is that a person thing that wont be solved by this?
Jane
Jane:
I read your posts, but not all the replies...so this may be repeating a thought, but I just wanted to say:
You feel anxious and crumbly based on his behavior is just old patterns that are kinda embedded in you. Jane, you aren't that person anymore. You are an incredible woman...you are strong, insightful, loving, beautiful and so very generous with your spirit, your wisdom. You aren't a "guilty" person anymore...you are an independent woman and mother...and you are looking to care for your children in the best way possible.
This really isn't about him Jane...this is about your family and your obligations to uphold their rights until they are of legal age to do so for themselves.
In other words, it isn't personal.
So, you aren't anxious and crumbly in my opinion...you are shining and strong and wise! I am so glad you are my friend here!
Peace to you.
Sarah
I read your posts, but not all the replies...so this may be repeating a thought, but I just wanted to say:
You feel anxious and crumbly based on his behavior is just old patterns that are kinda embedded in you. Jane, you aren't that person anymore. You are an incredible woman...you are strong, insightful, loving, beautiful and so very generous with your spirit, your wisdom. You aren't a "guilty" person anymore...you are an independent woman and mother...and you are looking to care for your children in the best way possible.
This really isn't about him Jane...this is about your family and your obligations to uphold their rights until they are of legal age to do so for themselves.
In other words, it isn't personal.
So, you aren't anxious and crumbly in my opinion...you are shining and strong and wise! I am so glad you are my friend here!
Peace to you.
Sarah
Sarah
Thank you.
Thank you.
Jane- Just from my 12+ years and five kids battle it out in the courts over custody/support, these are my observations. Laws vary from state to state but they are pretty consistent in these areas:
Problem obviously. He did have them for a time (I can't remember how long) and for some reason, you took over. He did and does however have physical custody and once that is established, it can be difficult to change. 6 months is really not all that long but "mothers" do have an advantage here. My honest opinion? 50/50 chance of a change unless he agrees, which is unlikely.
It always does.
He could have a case. Was there a reason no support order was issued at the time? There is such a thing as retro child support and its based on what is known as imputed income (basically, even if you made no money, what you COULD of made if you were working, etc). Slippery ground here. It happens a lot.
Also, be careful of your lawyer. As much as we want to believe they are in this to help, they are in this to make money. A lot of it.
Yes it is.
Yes you can. You will be nailed for legal fee's for everything and it sets presedence as far as your desire to gain custody. The court doesnn't like it when petitions are withdrawn.
Is his wife hip to his income? She won't give that up without doing everything possible to prevent paying you. Especially with a standing court order already in effect.
As rightly you should.
I'm certainly not trying to discourage you. Just be careful of your lawyer, seek a second opinion (consults are free) and be prepared for a fight. He's going to paint an awful picture of you and frankly, the court takes all that into consideration. We might sometimes sugarcoat things here. The court is a little more judgemental. Hence the name Judge. Believe me, I have a court history in this matter. What in favor is you are the mother and the kids live with you (albeit, not a long time). His advantage, he has a "stable" family unit (wife, siblings) and a standing custody order. That is a tough one to beat.
Why didn't you get custody to begin with? If it was drug related, that figures heavily against you. Not trying to scare or discourage you. Bottom line, the kids could be back with him and you could be paying support. Just be ready for it.
If you want to email me off the board, feel free.
| QUOTE |
| We have joint legal and him physical. But he hasn't had them with him for over 6 months. |
Problem obviously. He did have them for a time (I can't remember how long) and for some reason, you took over. He did and does however have physical custody and once that is established, it can be difficult to change. 6 months is really not all that long but "mothers" do have an advantage here. My honest opinion? 50/50 chance of a change unless he agrees, which is unlikely.
| QUOTE |
| And too your right it will probably boil down to a custody thing for sure. |
It always does.
| QUOTE |
| Although in trying to discuss this with him he thinks I should pay him back support. Even though they have not been with him primarily. And I did talk to the lawyer about all of that & he told me the court weighed in my favor. |
He could have a case. Was there a reason no support order was issued at the time? There is such a thing as retro child support and its based on what is known as imputed income (basically, even if you made no money, what you COULD of made if you were working, etc). Slippery ground here. It happens a lot.
Also, be careful of your lawyer. As much as we want to believe they are in this to help, they are in this to make money. A lot of it.
| QUOTE |
| So right now formost on his mind is trying to get back support from me and the lawyer told me that is not possible since the orginal divorce decree said could be considered at a later date.... |
Yes it is.
| QUOTE |
| Can I just back out if it gets realy ugly or once you file do you have to follow through? |
Yes you can. You will be nailed for legal fee's for everything and it sets presedence as far as your desire to gain custody. The court doesnn't like it when petitions are withdrawn.
| QUOTE |
| There is always the threat that it could turn to custody thing. But I really don't think his wife is hip to that. She has found out how he is. Gone all the time and leaving her with the kids constantly and to boot they are not hers so she looses it on my kids. She did it last weekend. I guess if he wants to stay married he has to consider her feelings and it is becoming increasingly clear what those feelings are. I've given her the benefit of the doubt as far as freaking out last weekend. |
Is his wife hip to his income? She won't give that up without doing everything possible to prevent paying you. Especially with a standing court order already in effect.
| QUOTE |
| I will try and have tried to work it out with him out of court that is my prefrence so I am not all hell bent to take it to the extreme but I want to know that I have the balls to fight for my kids' rights. |
As rightly you should.
I'm certainly not trying to discourage you. Just be careful of your lawyer, seek a second opinion (consults are free) and be prepared for a fight. He's going to paint an awful picture of you and frankly, the court takes all that into consideration. We might sometimes sugarcoat things here. The court is a little more judgemental. Hence the name Judge. Believe me, I have a court history in this matter. What in favor is you are the mother and the kids live with you (albeit, not a long time). His advantage, he has a "stable" family unit (wife, siblings) and a standing custody order. That is a tough one to beat.
Why didn't you get custody to begin with? If it was drug related, that figures heavily against you. Not trying to scare or discourage you. Bottom line, the kids could be back with him and you could be paying support. Just be ready for it.
If you want to email me off the board, feel free.
Jane, don't be afraid. I know this can seem scary, but your past is that....the past.
I had some ugly things come up ( from the child support investigator of all people) and my sister told me "all is fair in love and litigation." But today, and for a substantial amount of time, you have made living amends. They will definately take that into consideration.
You are supporting them and YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SUPPORT. I know this seems scary, but he knows you are right....
I say talk to the lawyer (or two) and fight for your children. It is very difficult to be the mother and the breadwinner; your children deserve to have child support.
This is about the children. It is very expensive to raise children and not to mention you are doing all of the work.
It will be okay. You have come so far, and don't forget that. Don't let fear step in. Know that a power greater than you is with you.
It will be okay. I go to court (I have been getting half of what I should; albeit it is something, but he has to answer to the judge why he isn't STILL following the rules) on the 30th. I know it is scary, but just put one foot in front of the other and remember, it is for your children. Not to mention, YOU DESERVE IT.
Think positive.....it will be okay.
I had some ugly things come up ( from the child support investigator of all people) and my sister told me "all is fair in love and litigation." But today, and for a substantial amount of time, you have made living amends. They will definately take that into consideration.
You are supporting them and YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO SUPPORT. I know this seems scary, but he knows you are right....
I say talk to the lawyer (or two) and fight for your children. It is very difficult to be the mother and the breadwinner; your children deserve to have child support.
This is about the children. It is very expensive to raise children and not to mention you are doing all of the work.
It will be okay. You have come so far, and don't forget that. Don't let fear step in. Know that a power greater than you is with you.
It will be okay. I go to court (I have been getting half of what I should; albeit it is something, but he has to answer to the judge why he isn't STILL following the rules) on the 30th. I know it is scary, but just put one foot in front of the other and remember, it is for your children. Not to mention, YOU DESERVE IT.
Think positive.....it will be okay.
jane...........
i have no advice, except your doing the right thing.........
your such a strong woman.
thumper
i have no advice, except your doing the right thing.........
your such a strong woman.
thumper
Kerry- Actually, morally, she is right. Legally, she is not until a change in physical custody is awarded. I don't get the whole child support thing as I always pay and have for 12 years now, A huge some too but its worth it.
Anyway Jane- If I remember right, you are from Utah. If I am wrong, forget the following, but this might help: Also, forgot to mention, watch for ex parte if he is sneaky.
Divorce in Utah - Custody
In determining custody, the paramount concern is what is in the best interests of the child(ren). The court is to consider, including, but not limited to:
the past conduct and moral standards of the parties;
the child's (children's) choice;
which parent will act in the best interests of the child(ren);
the parent's choice;
keeping siblings together;
the relative strength of the child(ren)'s bond with one or both of the prospective custodians;
in appropriate cases, the general interest in continuing previously determined custody arrangements where the child is happy and well adjusted;
With respects to the prospective custodians, the court should consider:
moral character and emotional stability;
duration and depth of desire for custody;
ability to provide personal rather than surrogate care;
significant impairment of ability to function as a parent through drug abuse, excessive drinking, or other cause;
religious compatibility with the child;
kinship, including in appropriate case, stepparent status;
financial condition.
Statute:
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10
30-3-10. Custody of children in case of separation or divorce--Custody consideration
(1) If a husband and wife having minor children are separated, or their marriage is declared void or dissolved, the court shall make an order for the future care and custody of the minor children as it considers appropriate. In determining custody, the court shall consider the best interests of the child and the past conduct and demonstrated moral standards of each of the parties. The court may inquire of the children and take into consideration the children's desires regarding the future custody, but the expressed desires are not controlling and the court may determine the children's custody otherwise.
(2) In awarding custody, the court shall consider, among other factors the court finds relevant, which parent is most likely to act in the best interests of the child, including allowing the child frequent and continuing contact with the noncustodial parent as the court finds appropriate.
(3) If the court finds that one parent does not desire custody of the child, or has attempted to permanently relinquish custody to a third party, it shall take that evidence into consideration in determining whether to award custody to the other parent.
Divorce In Utah - Joint Legal Custody
Joint legal custody is a custody arrangement in which both parents share the authority and responsibility to make basic decisions regarding their child's welfare. Joint legal custody does not mean joint physical custody.
Statute:
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.1
30-3-10.1. Joint legal custody defined
In this chapter, "joint legal custody":
(1) means the sharing of the rights, privileges, duties, and powers of a parent by both parents, where specified;
(2) may include an award of exclusive authority by the court to one parent to make specific decisions;
(3) does not affect the physical custody of the child except as specified in the order of joint legal custody;
(4) is not based on awarding equal or nearly equal periods of physical custody of and access to the child to each of the parents, as the best interest of the child often requires that a primary physical residence for the child be designated; and
(5) does not prohibit the court from specifying one parent as the primary caretaker and one home as the primary residence of the child.
Divorce in Utah - Joint Custody Factors
The Court may order joint physical custody if: (a) joint legal custody is in the best interests of the child; and either (i) both parents agree to joint physical custody or (ii) both parents appear capable of implementing joint legal custody.
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.2
30-3-10.2. Joint legal or physical custody order--Factors for court determination--Public assistance
(1) The court may order joint legal custody if it determines that joint legal custody is in the best interest of the child and:
(a) both parents agree to an order of joint legal custody; or
(b) both parents appear capable of implementing joint legal custody.
(2) In determining whether the best interest of a child will be served by ordering joint custody, the court shall consider the following factors:
(a) whether the physical, psychological, and emotional needs and development of the child will benefit from joint legal custody;
(b) the ability of the parents to give first priority to the welfare of the child and reach shared decisions in the child's best interest;
© whether each parent is capable of encouraging and accepting a positive relationship between the child and the other parent;
(d) whether both parents participated in raising the child before the divorce;
(e) the geographical proximity of the homes of the parents;
(f) the preference of the child if the child is of sufficient age and capacity to reason so as to form an intelligent preference as to joint legal custody;
(g) the maturity of the parents and their willingness and ability to protect the child from conflict that may arise between the parents; and
(h) any other factors the court finds relevant.
(3) The determination of the best interest of the child shall be by a preponderance of the evidence.
(4) The court shall inform both parties that an order for joint custody may preclude eligibility for public assistance in the form of aid to families with dependent children, and that if public assistance is required for the support of children of the parties at any time subsequent to an order of joint legal custody, the order may be terminated under Section 30-3-10.4.
(5) The court may order that where possible the parties attempt to settle future disputes by a dispute resolution method before seeking enforcement or modification of the terms and conditions of the order of joint legal custody through litigation, except in emergency situations requiring ex parte orders to protect the child.
Divorce in Utah - Modification of Orders
The District Court maintains continuing jurisdiction over the subject matter in a divorce, and may make modifications in child custody in the best interests of the child upon a showing of a material or substantial change in circumstances. The Utah Supreme Court has developed a two part test for custody modifications: (1) demonstrate a material and substantial change in circumstances upon which the original order was based; (2) once the change has been proven satisfactorily, the change in custody must be in the best interests of the child.
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.4
30-3-10.4. Modification or termination of order.
(1) On the motion of one or both of the joint legal custodians the court may, after a hearing, modify an order that established joint legal custody if:
(a) the circumstances of the child or one or both custodians have materially and substantially changed since the entry of the order to be modified, or the order has become unworkable or inappropriate under existing circumstances; and
(b) a modification of the terms and conditions of the decree would be an improvement for and in the best interest of the child.
(2) The order of joint legal custody shall be terminated by order of the court if both parents file a motion for termination. At the time of entry of an order terminating joint legal custody, the court shall enter an order of sole legal custody under Section 30-3-10. All related issues, including parent-time and child support, shall also be determined and ordered by the court.
(3) If the court finds that an action under this section is filed or answered frivolously and in a manner designed to harass the other party, the court shall assess attorney's fees as costs against the offending party.
Divorce in Utah - Custody Factors
In addition to those factors listed in Section 30-3-10 of the Utah Code, the corut should also consider within the context of the child's best interest:
keeping the siblings together;
the relative strength of the child's bond with one or both of the prospective custodians;
in appropriate cases, the general interest in continuing previously determined custody arrangements where the child is happy and well adjusted.
With respects to the parents, the court should consider:
moral character and emotional stability;
duration and depth of desire for custody;
ability to provide personal rather than surrogate care;
significant impairment of ability to function as a parent through drug abuse, excessive drinking, or other cause;
reasons for having relinquished custody in the past;
religious compatibility with the child;
kinship, including (in extraordinary cases) stepparent status; and
financial condition.
Divorce in Utah - Children Testifying in Court
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10
(b) The children may not be required to testify unless the trier of fact determines that extenuating circumstances exist that would necessitate the testimony of the children be heard and there is no other reasonable method to present their testimony.
(d) Interviews with the children may be conducted by the judge in camera only with the consent of the parties.
Anyway Jane- If I remember right, you are from Utah. If I am wrong, forget the following, but this might help: Also, forgot to mention, watch for ex parte if he is sneaky.
Divorce in Utah - Custody
In determining custody, the paramount concern is what is in the best interests of the child(ren). The court is to consider, including, but not limited to:
the past conduct and moral standards of the parties;
the child's (children's) choice;
which parent will act in the best interests of the child(ren);
the parent's choice;
keeping siblings together;
the relative strength of the child(ren)'s bond with one or both of the prospective custodians;
in appropriate cases, the general interest in continuing previously determined custody arrangements where the child is happy and well adjusted;
With respects to the prospective custodians, the court should consider:
moral character and emotional stability;
duration and depth of desire for custody;
ability to provide personal rather than surrogate care;
significant impairment of ability to function as a parent through drug abuse, excessive drinking, or other cause;
religious compatibility with the child;
kinship, including in appropriate case, stepparent status;
financial condition.
Statute:
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10
30-3-10. Custody of children in case of separation or divorce--Custody consideration
(1) If a husband and wife having minor children are separated, or their marriage is declared void or dissolved, the court shall make an order for the future care and custody of the minor children as it considers appropriate. In determining custody, the court shall consider the best interests of the child and the past conduct and demonstrated moral standards of each of the parties. The court may inquire of the children and take into consideration the children's desires regarding the future custody, but the expressed desires are not controlling and the court may determine the children's custody otherwise.
(2) In awarding custody, the court shall consider, among other factors the court finds relevant, which parent is most likely to act in the best interests of the child, including allowing the child frequent and continuing contact with the noncustodial parent as the court finds appropriate.
(3) If the court finds that one parent does not desire custody of the child, or has attempted to permanently relinquish custody to a third party, it shall take that evidence into consideration in determining whether to award custody to the other parent.
Divorce In Utah - Joint Legal Custody
Joint legal custody is a custody arrangement in which both parents share the authority and responsibility to make basic decisions regarding their child's welfare. Joint legal custody does not mean joint physical custody.
Statute:
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.1
30-3-10.1. Joint legal custody defined
In this chapter, "joint legal custody":
(1) means the sharing of the rights, privileges, duties, and powers of a parent by both parents, where specified;
(2) may include an award of exclusive authority by the court to one parent to make specific decisions;
(3) does not affect the physical custody of the child except as specified in the order of joint legal custody;
(4) is not based on awarding equal or nearly equal periods of physical custody of and access to the child to each of the parents, as the best interest of the child often requires that a primary physical residence for the child be designated; and
(5) does not prohibit the court from specifying one parent as the primary caretaker and one home as the primary residence of the child.
Divorce in Utah - Joint Custody Factors
The Court may order joint physical custody if: (a) joint legal custody is in the best interests of the child; and either (i) both parents agree to joint physical custody or (ii) both parents appear capable of implementing joint legal custody.
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.2
30-3-10.2. Joint legal or physical custody order--Factors for court determination--Public assistance
(1) The court may order joint legal custody if it determines that joint legal custody is in the best interest of the child and:
(a) both parents agree to an order of joint legal custody; or
(b) both parents appear capable of implementing joint legal custody.
(2) In determining whether the best interest of a child will be served by ordering joint custody, the court shall consider the following factors:
(a) whether the physical, psychological, and emotional needs and development of the child will benefit from joint legal custody;
(b) the ability of the parents to give first priority to the welfare of the child and reach shared decisions in the child's best interest;
© whether each parent is capable of encouraging and accepting a positive relationship between the child and the other parent;
(d) whether both parents participated in raising the child before the divorce;
(e) the geographical proximity of the homes of the parents;
(f) the preference of the child if the child is of sufficient age and capacity to reason so as to form an intelligent preference as to joint legal custody;
(g) the maturity of the parents and their willingness and ability to protect the child from conflict that may arise between the parents; and
(h) any other factors the court finds relevant.
(3) The determination of the best interest of the child shall be by a preponderance of the evidence.
(4) The court shall inform both parties that an order for joint custody may preclude eligibility for public assistance in the form of aid to families with dependent children, and that if public assistance is required for the support of children of the parties at any time subsequent to an order of joint legal custody, the order may be terminated under Section 30-3-10.4.
(5) The court may order that where possible the parties attempt to settle future disputes by a dispute resolution method before seeking enforcement or modification of the terms and conditions of the order of joint legal custody through litigation, except in emergency situations requiring ex parte orders to protect the child.
Divorce in Utah - Modification of Orders
The District Court maintains continuing jurisdiction over the subject matter in a divorce, and may make modifications in child custody in the best interests of the child upon a showing of a material or substantial change in circumstances. The Utah Supreme Court has developed a two part test for custody modifications: (1) demonstrate a material and substantial change in circumstances upon which the original order was based; (2) once the change has been proven satisfactorily, the change in custody must be in the best interests of the child.
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10.4
30-3-10.4. Modification or termination of order.
(1) On the motion of one or both of the joint legal custodians the court may, after a hearing, modify an order that established joint legal custody if:
(a) the circumstances of the child or one or both custodians have materially and substantially changed since the entry of the order to be modified, or the order has become unworkable or inappropriate under existing circumstances; and
(b) a modification of the terms and conditions of the decree would be an improvement for and in the best interest of the child.
(2) The order of joint legal custody shall be terminated by order of the court if both parents file a motion for termination. At the time of entry of an order terminating joint legal custody, the court shall enter an order of sole legal custody under Section 30-3-10. All related issues, including parent-time and child support, shall also be determined and ordered by the court.
(3) If the court finds that an action under this section is filed or answered frivolously and in a manner designed to harass the other party, the court shall assess attorney's fees as costs against the offending party.
Divorce in Utah - Custody Factors
In addition to those factors listed in Section 30-3-10 of the Utah Code, the corut should also consider within the context of the child's best interest:
keeping the siblings together;
the relative strength of the child's bond with one or both of the prospective custodians;
in appropriate cases, the general interest in continuing previously determined custody arrangements where the child is happy and well adjusted.
With respects to the parents, the court should consider:
moral character and emotional stability;
duration and depth of desire for custody;
ability to provide personal rather than surrogate care;
significant impairment of ability to function as a parent through drug abuse, excessive drinking, or other cause;
reasons for having relinquished custody in the past;
religious compatibility with the child;
kinship, including (in extraordinary cases) stepparent status; and
financial condition.
Divorce in Utah - Children Testifying in Court
Utah Code, Section 30-3-10
(b) The children may not be required to testify unless the trier of fact determines that extenuating circumstances exist that would necessitate the testimony of the children be heard and there is no other reasonable method to present their testimony.
(d) Interviews with the children may be conducted by the judge in camera only with the consent of the parties.
just jane:
what wonderful advice has been given to you...
pray that God will guide and direct your path, when i do that, i then feel confident in what ever decisions i make, that God has this problem in His hands and this is the direction/decision he wants me to take.
i have been unhappily married for 27 years to a mentally abusive man, i recently though have gotton the courage to try and do something about my miserable marriage.
it is gonna take financial independance on my part, i lost my independance when i made the decision to be a stay at home mom which turned out to be most beneficial to my sons who are now 19 and 22.
through many years of counseling and now my recovery from drug addiction,
i am able to love myself and do what it takes to stop allowing myself to be a doormat not only as my marriage is concerned but in other areas of my life too. (parents, siblings, bosses, nieces, nephews) man i could go on forever. i never was able to let go of past resentments as well and that is my homework presently, to start some stepwork so that i can change my "stinkin thinkin."
as women in marriages that have gone wrong i think alot of us suffered low self esteem etc. and we need to change that right?
i admire you for your courage...something i didn't have cuz i was so scared, scared of people, i lacked trust, i am scared to death of the opposite sex because of the sexual abuse from my dad and i have never been able to trust men. i wish i knew why, every relationship i have ever had even before i got married, no matter how well i treated them and believe me my co-dependancy was in full force, no matter how much i rolled out the red carpet.....i ALWAYS got burned....my fathers abuse to me robbed me of all intimacy and to tell you the truth i know i am not healthy enough mentally to have another relationship and don't think i ever will. i want so bad to be a strong, independant women as i enter into my 50's.
so that is where i am at today, it is hard to be sober and live with an alcoholic.... REALLY HARD. but i am doing it, 6 mos, clean but until i can get well enough to bring in a substancial income, i am left to be here and listen to my husband tell me how i have not contributed to our financial situtation and that this house is HIS and HE's the one who pays the bills, isn't that funny.... i work 3 part time jobs, i always figured that he brings home the bacon and i bring home the dessert!
sorry, i had to vent, my intention was to try and make justjane feel better and i end up letting my marriage issues get me upset. julie/jewels good luck jane.
what wonderful advice has been given to you...
pray that God will guide and direct your path, when i do that, i then feel confident in what ever decisions i make, that God has this problem in His hands and this is the direction/decision he wants me to take.
i have been unhappily married for 27 years to a mentally abusive man, i recently though have gotton the courage to try and do something about my miserable marriage.
it is gonna take financial independance on my part, i lost my independance when i made the decision to be a stay at home mom which turned out to be most beneficial to my sons who are now 19 and 22.
through many years of counseling and now my recovery from drug addiction,
i am able to love myself and do what it takes to stop allowing myself to be a doormat not only as my marriage is concerned but in other areas of my life too. (parents, siblings, bosses, nieces, nephews) man i could go on forever. i never was able to let go of past resentments as well and that is my homework presently, to start some stepwork so that i can change my "stinkin thinkin."
as women in marriages that have gone wrong i think alot of us suffered low self esteem etc. and we need to change that right?
i admire you for your courage...something i didn't have cuz i was so scared, scared of people, i lacked trust, i am scared to death of the opposite sex because of the sexual abuse from my dad and i have never been able to trust men. i wish i knew why, every relationship i have ever had even before i got married, no matter how well i treated them and believe me my co-dependancy was in full force, no matter how much i rolled out the red carpet.....i ALWAYS got burned....my fathers abuse to me robbed me of all intimacy and to tell you the truth i know i am not healthy enough mentally to have another relationship and don't think i ever will. i want so bad to be a strong, independant women as i enter into my 50's.
so that is where i am at today, it is hard to be sober and live with an alcoholic.... REALLY HARD. but i am doing it, 6 mos, clean but until i can get well enough to bring in a substancial income, i am left to be here and listen to my husband tell me how i have not contributed to our financial situtation and that this house is HIS and HE's the one who pays the bills, isn't that funny.... i work 3 part time jobs, i always figured that he brings home the bacon and i bring home the dessert!
sorry, i had to vent, my intention was to try and make justjane feel better and i end up letting my marriage issues get me upset. julie/jewels good luck jane.
Danny- You have been most helpful. Though I don't feel smart enough to process all of that information but some. I am going to send you and email later after I get off work so we can discuss this and thank you in advance. I need to hear the non sugar coated truth.
Kerry- Thank you I do feel it would be irresponsible not to do something. So I need a little encouragement.
Jewels & Thumps appreciate the caring.
Love,
Jane
Kerry- Thank you I do feel it would be irresponsible not to do something. So I need a little encouragement.
Jewels & Thumps appreciate the caring.
Love,
Jane
Jane,
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine a father not taking care of his children and how terrible that must be for everyone. It's particularly reprehensible because it sounds like he's depriving his kids as some way of hitting back at you. That's treating his kids as things. It's not right.
You've gotten such good advice from some of the best folks on this board and since I don't know your situation, I'll just say, I wish you the very best. The guilt you feel sounds like poison he's laid on you. Don't swallow it. You deserve an equitable settlement and the children deserve to be taken care of by their father.
Gina
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine a father not taking care of his children and how terrible that must be for everyone. It's particularly reprehensible because it sounds like he's depriving his kids as some way of hitting back at you. That's treating his kids as things. It's not right.
You've gotten such good advice from some of the best folks on this board and since I don't know your situation, I'll just say, I wish you the very best. The guilt you feel sounds like poison he's laid on you. Don't swallow it. You deserve an equitable settlement and the children deserve to be taken care of by their father.
Gina
Gina. I just started a thread about some advice I got from you second hand. ( I read it as advice on another thread) Thank you for caring and I helping me see that I am not a victim here. I need to do what I need to do for me and my kids.
Love,
Jane
Love,
Jane
Jane,
To tell you the truth, I didn't want to read your post because I've been doing the lawyer thing and I felt my stomach drop when I saw the header -- like I can't bring myself to read posts about dental work.
But I'm so glad I did, because it clarified the whole "I am not worthy of his money" thing I've been battling myself.
I am Chinese and until 1987 in Taiwan, when a woman divorced her husband, she got nothing. Complete custody automatically went to the father regardless of circumstance, even abuse. The divorced mother lost all rights to her children, and a woman's family would not think of taking an ex's children into their home. While I'm sure there were many exceptions, and while I am quite Westernized, the subtext I didn't even realize I'd internalized was that I would be lucky to get out with my clothes and jewelry. I told this to a friend and she slammed her hands down on the table -- causing a waiter to spill a tray, lol -- and told me I needed to get my American head out of my Chinese butt.
I guess it's not just a Chinese perception. So I'll say this to you and hope I can hear it myself. It's the law. He has to take care of his children. There's no "fight" about it -- that financial support is your right and theirs.
I read your success story. You are no victim. I can't begin to imagine the determination it took to get you out of where you were (and the way you started taking opiates, how it made you feel, resonated with me to the core).
You're a strong, worthy woman. He needs a kick in the scroat (I learned that new word from Michelle, lololol).
Love,
Gina
"All men are s***s!"
(I don't mean that, but today I like the way it sounds, so bear with me.)
To tell you the truth, I didn't want to read your post because I've been doing the lawyer thing and I felt my stomach drop when I saw the header -- like I can't bring myself to read posts about dental work.
But I'm so glad I did, because it clarified the whole "I am not worthy of his money" thing I've been battling myself.
I am Chinese and until 1987 in Taiwan, when a woman divorced her husband, she got nothing. Complete custody automatically went to the father regardless of circumstance, even abuse. The divorced mother lost all rights to her children, and a woman's family would not think of taking an ex's children into their home. While I'm sure there were many exceptions, and while I am quite Westernized, the subtext I didn't even realize I'd internalized was that I would be lucky to get out with my clothes and jewelry. I told this to a friend and she slammed her hands down on the table -- causing a waiter to spill a tray, lol -- and told me I needed to get my American head out of my Chinese butt.
I guess it's not just a Chinese perception. So I'll say this to you and hope I can hear it myself. It's the law. He has to take care of his children. There's no "fight" about it -- that financial support is your right and theirs.
I read your success story. You are no victim. I can't begin to imagine the determination it took to get you out of where you were (and the way you started taking opiates, how it made you feel, resonated with me to the core).
You're a strong, worthy woman. He needs a kick in the scroat (I learned that new word from Michelle, lololol).
Love,
Gina
"All men are s***s!"
(I don't mean that, but today I like the way it sounds, so bear with me.)
