"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"
I've been taught that step two is in two parts, the first part being "came to believe in a Power". This is a difficult thing for a lot of us. When I came in, the only Power I believed was greater than me was my addiction to pills. It ruled my life. But it was killing me. So I had to find something greater than that and it couldn't be me. When I tried to run things I usually messed them up. I needed to find a Power I could rely on to get me through the withdrawal. I had done it my way for so long. I always had to be in control of my life and had only messed it up. So I turned back to God. Some people have a problem with God and use the people of AA or NA as their Higher Power. Some are Christian, some are not. The important thing is to recognize the fact that "I" am powerless (step one) and something else has more power than I do.
The second part, "could restore us to sanity" means, for me, that the way I was living was insane. I like the meaning, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." I had tried to change my life without giving up pills and it got me nowhere. I tried substitution, I tried tapering, I tried 'taking them as prescribed', none of it worked for me. The only way I could get any sanity into my life was entire abstinence. The only way I could succeed with entire abstinence was to ask a Power greater than myself for help. Whether this is God or a "Group Of Drunks" was up to me. All I had to do was recognize that my way was not working and unless I changed and asked for help, the insanity would continue. Until I was willing to change, nothing would change. I couldn't just put down pills and keep my old ideas and actions. I needed help.
thanks for letting me share
love ya's
Kat
I wish I had faith in a higher power, but thats just not the way i think, maybe my recovery would be much easier if i passed the book and said it wasnt my fault, but it was my fault, i took the drugs and pills so i really cant say it's not my fault!!! this is where i have trouble with the 12 step programme because i just cant blame any body but myself for my addiction, so i end up not even being able to accept the 1st or 2nd step!!!
Do you see what i mean, all i see when a higher powers mentioned is `man made religion' and i just cant agree with it, but i've been clean since oct 01 and have just done my 2nd reduction on subutex yesterday, and yes i would love to be more spiritual but it really doesnt come naturally to myself because i'm a scientist so belive in scientific theories of creation not god made us in 7days ect, could i be looking at this to literally?? Because i cant make myself believe in god no matter how much i want to!! Any info back would be appreciated
Do you see what i mean, all i see when a higher powers mentioned is `man made religion' and i just cant agree with it, but i've been clean since oct 01 and have just done my 2nd reduction on subutex yesterday, and yes i would love to be more spiritual but it really doesnt come naturally to myself because i'm a scientist so belive in scientific theories of creation not god made us in 7days ect, could i be looking at this to literally?? Because i cant make myself believe in god no matter how much i want to!! Any info back would be appreciated
dear gabbi -
ever consider trying the God of your understanding?
it has been my experience that the 12 step programs teach two lessons -
1) the responsiblity i owe to my recovery - and yes! like you, i had to start by owning the part i played in my addiction.
2) the trust we develop in a good, positive, Power - much greater than ourselves.
when i came to this program of recovery it was from a place where it had been difficult for me to do things that were loving and good for myself. getting clean and wanting to learn a way that was more positive to cope with life on life's terms, was something that had eluded me for quite some time (yet deep down, i yearned for it). i too found it difficult to wrap my brain around the "God" concept and really didn't want to spend a whole lot of time debating religion v. spirituality. i found it a useless effort of my energy and goodness knows, when new to recovery i needed to expend every ounce of energy towards not using for the moment.
hence, my interpretation of a higher power = love. i surrounded myself with people whom i felt love from - who nurtured my spirit through sharing their experiences with me, doing kind acts, saying kind words, until i could learn to do these things for myself.
anyone who may be struggling with this God concept, i beckon you, please don't miss the message that the 12 step program tells us. it's a novel idea and bill w. had the insight 60+ years ago to see the problem this may present to some - why not consider a God of your understanding? as long as it is a positive force, that brings a direction of goodness in our lives, this is what matters. each day i don't use and continue to trust in this Power of love, my faith in this absolutely amazing Power of love is strengthened. the longer i hang around doing these things - the more that is revealed.;)
have a great day, my friend!
sammy
ever consider trying the God of your understanding?
it has been my experience that the 12 step programs teach two lessons -
1) the responsiblity i owe to my recovery - and yes! like you, i had to start by owning the part i played in my addiction.
2) the trust we develop in a good, positive, Power - much greater than ourselves.
when i came to this program of recovery it was from a place where it had been difficult for me to do things that were loving and good for myself. getting clean and wanting to learn a way that was more positive to cope with life on life's terms, was something that had eluded me for quite some time (yet deep down, i yearned for it). i too found it difficult to wrap my brain around the "God" concept and really didn't want to spend a whole lot of time debating religion v. spirituality. i found it a useless effort of my energy and goodness knows, when new to recovery i needed to expend every ounce of energy towards not using for the moment.
hence, my interpretation of a higher power = love. i surrounded myself with people whom i felt love from - who nurtured my spirit through sharing their experiences with me, doing kind acts, saying kind words, until i could learn to do these things for myself.
anyone who may be struggling with this God concept, i beckon you, please don't miss the message that the 12 step program tells us. it's a novel idea and bill w. had the insight 60+ years ago to see the problem this may present to some - why not consider a God of your understanding? as long as it is a positive force, that brings a direction of goodness in our lives, this is what matters. each day i don't use and continue to trust in this Power of love, my faith in this absolutely amazing Power of love is strengthened. the longer i hang around doing these things - the more that is revealed.;)
have a great day, my friend!
sammy
Gabbi, what you wrote is very similar to a concern expressed just a few days ago. Most of us come in with a certain amount of baggage: remorse for what we have done to ourselves, loss of faith or no faith, skeptisim that a "corny" program might actually help someone as unique or far gone as us. Beleive it or not, I doubt that I have ever met someone just starting that did not have one or more of these kinds of concerns.
On the concept of higher power, I wrote this to Leigh under the heading "Religion." I am reposting it here, because her concerns are nearly identical to what you expressed. You may find that there is far more leeway and flexibility here that what you are imagining.
Stick around. Sounds like you are doing great, but I can tell you that life becomes more enjoyable once we can relax a little bit and rely on the support network we have built in recovery. I hope some fo the following text speaks to you.
August
When I first stumbled into a 12 Step meeting, they asked if there were any guests and I raised my hand and said that I did not know whether I was an addict or not, but that I did not like this entire "God Thing," and was not sure whether the 12 step program was for me. The meeting leader replied that most people confuse religion with spirituality. He distinguished the two concepts as follows:
"Religion is for people who want to go to heaven. Spirituality is for people who have been to hell and want out."
It was a few weeks longer before I decided to get sober, and a few weeks again before I able to begin working the Steps. I decided that I needed to be open minded, so I continued to ask questions and attend meetings. Eventually I realized that I wasnt really mad at God as much as I was mad at most Christians and the people who perverted Christianity in the name of their own selfish goals. With that realization, I was able to move forward.
No one has the right to tell you what you should or should not believe, and the steps are not a requirement for attendance at NA or AA, only suggestions. I know of numerous people who have similar viewpoints to yours and they have managed to work the steps by doing things like naming their home group as their Higher Power, or naming music (I used this one for a while), or a lamp post, for that matter [Gabbi, if you are still reading, you can name science as your higher power]. The important thing at this point is to look to something outside yourself to help you stay sober.
Congrats on the good work up to this point. You have some impressive time! If I can help, please feel free to let me know. I hope you will hang around and continue to share your thoughts with us!
On the concept of higher power, I wrote this to Leigh under the heading "Religion." I am reposting it here, because her concerns are nearly identical to what you expressed. You may find that there is far more leeway and flexibility here that what you are imagining.
Stick around. Sounds like you are doing great, but I can tell you that life becomes more enjoyable once we can relax a little bit and rely on the support network we have built in recovery. I hope some fo the following text speaks to you.
August
When I first stumbled into a 12 Step meeting, they asked if there were any guests and I raised my hand and said that I did not know whether I was an addict or not, but that I did not like this entire "God Thing," and was not sure whether the 12 step program was for me. The meeting leader replied that most people confuse religion with spirituality. He distinguished the two concepts as follows:
"Religion is for people who want to go to heaven. Spirituality is for people who have been to hell and want out."
It was a few weeks longer before I decided to get sober, and a few weeks again before I able to begin working the Steps. I decided that I needed to be open minded, so I continued to ask questions and attend meetings. Eventually I realized that I wasnt really mad at God as much as I was mad at most Christians and the people who perverted Christianity in the name of their own selfish goals. With that realization, I was able to move forward.
No one has the right to tell you what you should or should not believe, and the steps are not a requirement for attendance at NA or AA, only suggestions. I know of numerous people who have similar viewpoints to yours and they have managed to work the steps by doing things like naming their home group as their Higher Power, or naming music (I used this one for a while), or a lamp post, for that matter [Gabbi, if you are still reading, you can name science as your higher power]. The important thing at this point is to look to something outside yourself to help you stay sober.
Congrats on the good work up to this point. You have some impressive time! If I can help, please feel free to let me know. I hope you will hang around and continue to share your thoughts with us!
THANX for the reply, y'know although i've been off street drugs for some time (i'm reduceing on subutex and reduced for the 2nd time yesterday) I'm fairly new to the twelve step programme and to be honest i saw the word god and ran a mile, but after reading both your posts, i think i will give it another go, thankyou both so much for your input, i never thought of it like that, i just assumed that it was god as in say the catholic faith ect
THANX SO MUCH i think you've opened my eyes,
Have a wonderful day
Love
Gabbi
THANX SO MUCH i think you've opened my eyes,
Have a wonderful day
Love
Gabbi
Gabbi, I come from a family of engineers, where rational thought is held to a premium. If you have an opinion, you had to be able to back it up. I need to get to my guitar practice today, but I pulled some text out of the Bib Book that, again, addresses some of your concerns. I challenge you to read it before dismissing it as worthless. That may not be terribly easy since the prose is stiled and out of date (it was written in the 1930s) but I feel certain that a person who values the intellect can handle it.
If you wish to challenge this on any level at all, I am all ears. I love a good debate and as long as we can do it without bruising egos, I say so much the better A warning, though: I debate for a living :-) Logic and rational thought have put a lot of food on my table.
Good luck--I welcome your "poking some holes" in this. We may not agree on anything, but perhaps we can have some fun! I am off to practice my guitar. I will look in later on.
From Chapter 2, We Agnostics
This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason. Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those days was equal to the best of today. Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth preposterous. Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical heresies.
We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? Even in the present century, American newspapers were afraid to print an account of the Wright brothers' first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley's flying machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that the best mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in full swing.
But in most fields our generation has witnessed complete liberation in thinking. Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, "I bet they do it maybe not so long either." Is not our age characterized by the ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something new which does?
We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn't apply to our human problems this same readiness to change our point of view. We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people was not a basic solution of these bedevilments more important than whether we should see newsreels of lunar flight? Of course it was.
When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.
The Wright brothers' almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring of their accomplishment. Without that, nothing could have happened. We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that "God-sufficiency worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly.
Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, "We don't know."
When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue. Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support.
That was natural, but let us think a little more closely. Without knowing it, had we not been brought to where we stood by a certain kind of faith? For did we not believe in our own reasoning? did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time!
We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.
Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn't be life. But we believed in life of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn't. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.
Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, thought it emanate from our best minds. What about people who proved that man could never fly? Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.
If you wish to challenge this on any level at all, I am all ears. I love a good debate and as long as we can do it without bruising egos, I say so much the better A warning, though: I debate for a living :-) Logic and rational thought have put a lot of food on my table.
Good luck--I welcome your "poking some holes" in this. We may not agree on anything, but perhaps we can have some fun! I am off to practice my guitar. I will look in later on.
From Chapter 2, We Agnostics
This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason. Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those days was equal to the best of today. Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth preposterous. Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical heresies.
We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? Even in the present century, American newspapers were afraid to print an account of the Wright brothers' first successful flight at Kittyhawk. Had not all efforts at flight failed before? Did not Professor Langley's flying machine go to the bottom of the Potomac River? Was it not true that the best mathematical minds had proved man could never fly? Had not people said God had reserved this privilege to the birds? Only thirty years later the conquest of the air was almost an old story and airplane travel was in full swing.
But in most fields our generation has witnessed complete liberation in thinking. Show any longshoreman a Sunday supplement describing a proposal to explore the moon by means of a rocket and he will say, "I bet they do it maybe not so long either." Is not our age characterized by the ease with which we discard old ideas for new, by the complete readiness with which we throw away the theory or gadget which does not work for something new which does?
We had to ask ourselves why we shouldn't apply to our human problems this same readiness to change our point of view. We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other people was not a basic solution of these bedevilments more important than whether we should see newsreels of lunar flight? Of course it was.
When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did.
The Wright brothers' almost childish faith that they could build a machine which would fly was the mainspring of their accomplishment. Without that, nothing could have happened. We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that "God-sufficiency worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly.
Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, "We don't know."
When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?
Arrived at this point, we were squarely confronted with the question of faith. We couldn't duck the issue. Some of us had already walked far over the Bridge of Reason toward the desired shore of faith. The outlines and the promise of the New Land had brought lustre to tired eyes and fresh courage to flagging spirits. Friendly hands had stretched out in welcome. We were grateful that Reason had brought us so far. But somehow, we couldn't quite step ashore. Perhaps we had been leaning too heavily on reason that last mile and we did not like to lose our support.
That was natural, but let us think a little more closely. Without knowing it, had we not been brought to where we stood by a certain kind of faith? For did we not believe in our own reasoning? did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time!
We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? And then, with a better motive, had we not worshipfully beheld the sunset, the sea, or a flower? Who of us had not loved something or somebody? How much did these feelings, these loves, these worships, have to do with pure reason? Little or nothing, we saw at last. Were not these things the tissue out of which our lives were constructed? Did not these feelings, after all, determine the course of our existence? It was impossible to say we had no capacity for faith, or love, or worship. In one form or another we had been living by faith and little else.
Imagine life without faith! Were nothing left but pure reason, it wouldn't be life. But we believed in life of course we did. We could not prove life in the sense that you can prove a straight line is the shortest distance between two points, yet, there it was. Could we still say the whole thing was nothing but a mass of electrons, created out of nothing, meaning nothing, whirling on to a destiny of nothingness? Or course we couldn't. The electrons themselves seemed more intelligent than that. At least, so the chemist said.
Hence, we saw that reason isn't everything. Neither is reason, as most of us use it, entirely dependable, thought it emanate from our best minds. What about people who proved that man could never fly? Yet we had been seeing another kind of flight, a spiritual liberation from this world, people who rose above their problems. They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled. We had seen spiritual release, but liked to tell ourselves it wasn't true.
Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God. It may be obscured by calamity, by pomp, by worship of other things, but in some form or other it is there. For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend. Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there. He was as much a fact as we were. We found the Great Reality deep down within us. In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found. It was so with us.
We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you.
there it is again! those electrons!
don't forget to throw those fig newtons in there too! ;)
hahahaha - you debate for a living? i thought those of us in the
legal field razzled dazzled them? the great entertainers?
who could put on the most convincing and entertaining show?
ah yes, dear counselor - that's part of it; however, let us hope the
facts will win out - the truth will set us free. ;) (geesh - i'm winking
more than bob, here <grin>)
it is a fact for this addict about one thing - as long as i don't use
and try to stay in the light of recovery i am on the positive side
of life. although, the every day stuff we find we have to deal with, might
not be so hot, it sure is easier dealing with when i am in the solution.
i love a debate too, and like you, hope that any debate will remain
around the issues at hand - not the personalities. principles before
personalities and all that good stuff.
good morning to you!
sammy
don't forget to throw those fig newtons in there too! ;)
hahahaha - you debate for a living? i thought those of us in the
legal field razzled dazzled them? the great entertainers?
who could put on the most convincing and entertaining show?
ah yes, dear counselor - that's part of it; however, let us hope the
facts will win out - the truth will set us free. ;) (geesh - i'm winking
more than bob, here <grin>)
it is a fact for this addict about one thing - as long as i don't use
and try to stay in the light of recovery i am on the positive side
of life. although, the every day stuff we find we have to deal with, might
not be so hot, it sure is easier dealing with when i am in the solution.
i love a debate too, and like you, hope that any debate will remain
around the issues at hand - not the personalities. principles before
personalities and all that good stuff.
good morning to you!
sammy
Actually, Sammy, it is a sneaky trick from a juandiced old lawyer.
I have no intention of debating anyone on anything, unless I am paid to do so. I just wanted to see if I could challenge some folks to read it. That way they can make up thier own minds.
Shhhhhh....Lets keep this our little secret.
August
I have no intention of debating anyone on anything, unless I am paid to do so. I just wanted to see if I could challenge some folks to read it. That way they can make up thier own minds.
Shhhhhh....Lets keep this our little secret.
August
