Just needed to get that out there.
What does that mean?
Love, cpvon
Love, cpvon
ok kb, but from someone who dosen't understand, when al-anon talks about detaching, at the extreme, such as restaining orders etc., it sounds like it.
I know there are more levels of detachment--not just the ultimate--but from the outside, detachment sounds like what it sounds like.
Not allowing someone's problems to influence my life is probably more realistic---but in some situations, would al-anon would point someone in the direction of (no contact)...complete physical detachment? (I would hope so, and I've seen those ideas used along with al-anon ideas).
In my view, that is tough-love--setting un-breakable boundries, and demands of behavior.
Is tough-love even used anymore since it was blamed in the death of curt cobain and jerry garcia?
I know there are more levels of detachment--not just the ultimate--but from the outside, detachment sounds like what it sounds like.
Not allowing someone's problems to influence my life is probably more realistic---but in some situations, would al-anon would point someone in the direction of (no contact)...complete physical detachment? (I would hope so, and I've seen those ideas used along with al-anon ideas).
In my view, that is tough-love--setting un-breakable boundries, and demands of behavior.
Is tough-love even used anymore since it was blamed in the death of curt cobain and jerry garcia?
I thought tough love was a sort of a principle of al-anon via detachment.... letting go, etc. What is the difference? Probably a very fine line.... and why is the difference so important?
I know Curt Cobain killed himself, what is this tough love thing about with him & Jerry Garcia? (know who he is but don't know Garcia's story).
Love, cpvon
I know Curt Cobain killed himself, what is this tough love thing about with him & Jerry Garcia? (know who he is but don't know Garcia's story).
Love, cpvon
I really have to run and will be gone over night. So don't have time to respond. For now I'll leave it at, Al-anon says detachment WITH LOVE. Tough Love is not an Al-anon slogan. Anyone working the program, I mean really working it, steps, sponsor etc, not just hit and miss a meeting here or there, gets that after awhile. It took me quite a long time to get the difference. It's about doing what WE NEED to be OK, to have some peace and serenity for us. Whatever that looks like for me, myself and I. If that means no contact, a little contact, or having them living with me. Detachment WITH LOVE, isn't about kicking them to the curb, it's about compassion, for them and ourselves. It's the with love that makes it different from tough love IMHO. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with tough love, I'm just saying it's NOT Al-anon.
You all have a good weekend, that's my plan!
Faith and Hope
Kerrbear
PS
still no word from my MIA son, keep the prayers coming.
Thanks!
You all have a good weekend, that's my plan!
Faith and Hope
Kerrbear
PS
still no word from my MIA son, keep the prayers coming.
Thanks!
I think detachment with love takes a long time to get to it is something you work on, some people in the beginning detach in anger. It takes time to get to the love and compassion part.
Hugs, Lori
Hugs, Lori
cvon---the story was that cobain's wife was using tough-love principals on him, which (in some people's opinions) caused him to kill himself. Garcia was at a re-hab, or had just been released from one when he passed away. It was also reported that people close to garcia had set tough-love ultimatum style boundries...at that time, i think the definition was "you use drugs/-no contact".
I gotta detach myself from this board myself for a little while (with love!)...
I have work to do!
I gotta detach myself from this board myself for a little while (with love!)...
I have work to do!
That was helpful KerrBear and it makes good sense. Seems like once the addict hits bottom his family should be there to support him in getting help if he wants it. Love can give people hope once they do hit bottom. My son left our home to pursue his addictions just yesterday and I wasn't quite sure what boundaries to set and your post helped. I will detach with love. If only I didn't feel so guilty!
The only message Al-anon has given me is to detach with love. It is hard to distinquish what that means. But it does mean to take care of yourself and set boundaries as you need to in order for you to be ok. We don't act to detach to punish our addict, we act to protect ourselves from mental harm. Of course, if it is abuse, no one is going to tell you to stay in that situation. That's a no brainer.
My son was using in the home, and bringing drugs and drug users and purchasers to my home and at all hours. I made a no-drug use in the home rule and he broke it. Then, he made a drug deal over the phone and my husband had a come to Jesus speech with him. My son opted to leave, and my husband did not discourage him. In fact, he told him if he didn't want to listen to what he had to say about the subject, he needed to go. I kept in touch with my son, and he has kept in touch with us. We have never stopped loving him and he has never stopped loving us. We just have lifestyles that conflict. I could get no peace for worry and concern over my son's drug use. My son could not freely use drugs in peace with us around. It worked out mutually for all of us.
He lives in an apartment with his girlfriend that uses drugs as well. He now does not have us to interfere in his choices - only his own consequences. Of course, he has had consequences that have been difficult, but that is life. I am trying to grow in alanon, as is my husband, so we don't interfere in that growth process. It is very hard. It is hard to see him ruin his credit, get calls from the bank at our house, have his phone cut off, and have to do yard work to pay his electric bill (outside of his other job), and other such things. However, it is his life and his right to make choices and explore his options in life. We all should have that right. Otherwise, we are never free to learn, grow and experience life on the terms that exist in the real world. It is not my will for him to go through the negative part, but he is under the protection of a power greater than me - his higher power- which is not me. I'm glad for that! That helps me to sleep at night which I never did well before.
My son was using in the home, and bringing drugs and drug users and purchasers to my home and at all hours. I made a no-drug use in the home rule and he broke it. Then, he made a drug deal over the phone and my husband had a come to Jesus speech with him. My son opted to leave, and my husband did not discourage him. In fact, he told him if he didn't want to listen to what he had to say about the subject, he needed to go. I kept in touch with my son, and he has kept in touch with us. We have never stopped loving him and he has never stopped loving us. We just have lifestyles that conflict. I could get no peace for worry and concern over my son's drug use. My son could not freely use drugs in peace with us around. It worked out mutually for all of us.
He lives in an apartment with his girlfriend that uses drugs as well. He now does not have us to interfere in his choices - only his own consequences. Of course, he has had consequences that have been difficult, but that is life. I am trying to grow in alanon, as is my husband, so we don't interfere in that growth process. It is very hard. It is hard to see him ruin his credit, get calls from the bank at our house, have his phone cut off, and have to do yard work to pay his electric bill (outside of his other job), and other such things. However, it is his life and his right to make choices and explore his options in life. We all should have that right. Otherwise, we are never free to learn, grow and experience life on the terms that exist in the real world. It is not my will for him to go through the negative part, but he is under the protection of a power greater than me - his higher power- which is not me. I'm glad for that! That helps me to sleep at night which I never did well before.
I found in my struggle with my daughter's addiction that it was a process. You just don't normally take a "tough love" approach immediately. Could be that it's best to, but I've yet to come across a parent who does. You do everything you can in your power to save your child, and the threshold seems to vary depending on varying issues such as health, or mental problems, even weather if you live in the snow...and then when you reach your threshold, you seem to be left with no choice but to let go. That's the way it was for me at least. Along the way, I felt misunderstood and at times felt people were heartless. Yet I'll never regret doing everything I could before I did what I had to. It would have been the only way I could have lived with myself. And I think if I were to have thrown her out earlier, it would have been out of selfishness on my part, because believe me I wanted to many times, but my duty as a mom was to exhaust all my options first. Just my journey on this heartbreaking road.
I agree, whether we use detachment with love or tough love depends on the circumstances. If my daughter stays in rehab & keeps trying and working her rehab program, it's detachment with love for me, and I have decided I will try to make her comfortable enough to stay at rehab and stick it out, supporting her emotionally, taking what she needs, visiting etc. But if she leaves the rehab it's tough love. I can't really have a relationship with her unless she is/has worked the full rehab program & is staying clean & sober.... my mistake before was always chasing after my daughter & rescuing her & enabling her whether she wanted it or not. I think alot of times she came here simply because she had no where else to go. She told me that after her last run. Her options are limited at this point so in a way, that's good. Sometimes though detachment with love feels like tough love! I feel like it's tough love telling her she cannot live in our home, yet it is really done out of love for her and not enabling her anymore!
We have to do what our hearts tell us, while still remembering the tools of our recovery programs.
Love to all,
cpvon
We have to do what our hearts tell us, while still remembering the tools of our recovery programs.
Love to all,
cpvon
Hi, Cpvon, boy, you've come a long way. I truly feel your road was longer due to Julie's health problems. And it does feel like "tough love" telling them they can't come home..there's guilt and sadness and you just kinda feel like a mean mom. My daughter was sober a couple months and asked, "Don't you want me to come back home?" And I told her, "I miss you, Britt. I wish every day you were here with me. But you won't grow here with me...you just won't. I'd wind up doing too much for you. I want you to be able to take care of yourself, which you're learning now." I swear not a day goes by that I don't wish she were here. but she is growing and she is getting more confidence working hard to make a life for herself. And that is my job now. I'm letting her go...with love.
My mother has been in Alanon for over 20 years. She uses the term "tough love" a lot. From what I can gather, to her, tough love and "detaching with love" means the exact same thing. I certainly don't think tough love means kicking your loved one to the curb. I just think it means to stop enabling them and detach. Doing this with a no-nonsense approach but still letting them know you love them IS tough love in my opinion. I think the term has been twisted and distorted by others over the years so much that some now think of it as a bad thing. Case in point, a parent who was caught beating their child said they were using tough love!
I found the following excerpt on a site about tough love, Alanon, AA and 12 step programs. I thought it was interesting...
"Tough love" is a phrase that has become slick with overuse. Many people dealing with chemically-addicted individuals, particularly in various 12-step programs, interpret it to their own convenience. Often these people practicing tough love in a self-centered or selfish way are sponsors who should know better.
In an earlier node dating back several years, tough love is presented as refusing to help someone who is still actively addicted, i.e. drinking and/or using. The expression began in the mid-80's with Al-Anon, the 12-step program for people associated with alcoholics, alcoholics either in or out of recovery.
Many of those joining Al-Anon were family members who had a history of enabling "their" alcoholic to continue the destructive behavior by covering for them when they were too hung-over to go to work, paying their bills or supporting the family when most of the paycheck ended up in the local bar, or bailing them out of unsavory situations that happened during a drinking spree. They were called enablers, a noun probably coined by Al-Anon itself.
Naturally, no loving wife wanted to learn that her best efforts were producing the opposite effect : instead of helping her husband stop or control his drinking, she was making it possible for him to drink even more. "Control freak" was another label used interchangeably with "enabler". There may be some truth in that one, as it is generally very, very hard for the associate of an alcoholic or addict to suddenly develop a hands-off attitude. Hence the term, tough love : Sure you love him, but leave him alone.
It didn't take very long for "tough love" to join the vocabulary of Alcoholics Anonymous itself. When a newly-abstinent alcoholic joins the Program, he or she is advised to find a "sponsor", someone who has been sober for a while and who can guide the newcomer in their first months of sobriety. These sponsors were soon advocating the practice of tough love.
Often this took the form of being brutally honest about character defects, or setting impossibly high standards for their "sponsees". Sometimes it manifested itself as "if he wants to talk to me he can call me, otherwise I'm going to ignore him". These sponsors forgot that the phrase is about love, not toughness. As Al-Anon says, "If you must leave your partner, detach with love."
There is an old AA story that was making the rounds before tough love was introduced. It is about an alcoholic, Jack, who joined AA, got a sponsor, and was doing very well for several months until he decided to go off the wagon. He came home from his bender and passed out on the living room floor. His wife called Jack's sponsor, Ed, and asked what she should do. Ed replied,
"If he's not in the way, just leave him there until he comes to."
"Just leave him there?" asked the wife. "All night long?"
"Well", Ed said, "if it gets chilly I suppose you could throw a blanket over him."
I found the following excerpt on a site about tough love, Alanon, AA and 12 step programs. I thought it was interesting...
"Tough love" is a phrase that has become slick with overuse. Many people dealing with chemically-addicted individuals, particularly in various 12-step programs, interpret it to their own convenience. Often these people practicing tough love in a self-centered or selfish way are sponsors who should know better.
In an earlier node dating back several years, tough love is presented as refusing to help someone who is still actively addicted, i.e. drinking and/or using. The expression began in the mid-80's with Al-Anon, the 12-step program for people associated with alcoholics, alcoholics either in or out of recovery.
Many of those joining Al-Anon were family members who had a history of enabling "their" alcoholic to continue the destructive behavior by covering for them when they were too hung-over to go to work, paying their bills or supporting the family when most of the paycheck ended up in the local bar, or bailing them out of unsavory situations that happened during a drinking spree. They were called enablers, a noun probably coined by Al-Anon itself.
Naturally, no loving wife wanted to learn that her best efforts were producing the opposite effect : instead of helping her husband stop or control his drinking, she was making it possible for him to drink even more. "Control freak" was another label used interchangeably with "enabler". There may be some truth in that one, as it is generally very, very hard for the associate of an alcoholic or addict to suddenly develop a hands-off attitude. Hence the term, tough love : Sure you love him, but leave him alone.
It didn't take very long for "tough love" to join the vocabulary of Alcoholics Anonymous itself. When a newly-abstinent alcoholic joins the Program, he or she is advised to find a "sponsor", someone who has been sober for a while and who can guide the newcomer in their first months of sobriety. These sponsors were soon advocating the practice of tough love.
Often this took the form of being brutally honest about character defects, or setting impossibly high standards for their "sponsees". Sometimes it manifested itself as "if he wants to talk to me he can call me, otherwise I'm going to ignore him". These sponsors forgot that the phrase is about love, not toughness. As Al-Anon says, "If you must leave your partner, detach with love."
There is an old AA story that was making the rounds before tough love was introduced. It is about an alcoholic, Jack, who joined AA, got a sponsor, and was doing very well for several months until he decided to go off the wagon. He came home from his bender and passed out on the living room floor. His wife called Jack's sponsor, Ed, and asked what she should do. Ed replied,
"If he's not in the way, just leave him there until he comes to."
"Just leave him there?" asked the wife. "All night long?"
"Well", Ed said, "if it gets chilly I suppose you could throw a blanket over him."
Well, this was a great topic! I have been researching this whole concept of tough love, and from as near as I can tell, it has morphed into its own type of recovery. But I also think the basis for it began in Alanon and was called exactly that by members back in the 80's. This would also coincide with when my mother started Alanon. Though it may not be part of the 12 step jargon in some places today, it certainly was and still is in some places. Many individual AA and Alanon groups are even called "Tough Love." Following are some blurbs from different AA, Alanon, and other 12 step recovery sites, etc.
"Tough love means you no longer:
Cover up for them;
Lie on their behalf;
Make excuses for them;
Loan money to them, regardless of how important they say it is;
Bribe them with money or presents to stay clean or go to treatment;
Clean up after them; or
Keep silent about how their behavior affects you.
It is called "tough love" because it is difficult to see a loved one in pain. You may feel guilty and confused, but remember: when you attempt to shield them or protect them from their own behavior, you are protecting the addiction and not the individual."
"That's why Al-Anon teaches family members how to confront with love. They learn how to remove the support systems that prop up the disease and permit it to thrive. They are shown how and when to impose ultimatums that force the alcoholic to admit his or her need for help. And sometimes they recommend separation until the victim is so miserable that his or her denial will no longer hold up. In essence, Alanon teaches its own love-must-be-tough philosophy to family members who must implement it."
4) "We learn to detach with love and to give ourselves and others tough love."
"It seems so selfish to ignore someone, but as one woman in our program explained, Thats not what Al-Anon means by detachment. Its really tough love ..."
"I think you will find Alanon very helpful. Tough love and detaching with love are hard for us people pleasers to learn to do."
"Tough love means you no longer:
Cover up for them;
Lie on their behalf;
Make excuses for them;
Loan money to them, regardless of how important they say it is;
Bribe them with money or presents to stay clean or go to treatment;
Clean up after them; or
Keep silent about how their behavior affects you.
It is called "tough love" because it is difficult to see a loved one in pain. You may feel guilty and confused, but remember: when you attempt to shield them or protect them from their own behavior, you are protecting the addiction and not the individual."
"That's why Al-Anon teaches family members how to confront with love. They learn how to remove the support systems that prop up the disease and permit it to thrive. They are shown how and when to impose ultimatums that force the alcoholic to admit his or her need for help. And sometimes they recommend separation until the victim is so miserable that his or her denial will no longer hold up. In essence, Alanon teaches its own love-must-be-tough philosophy to family members who must implement it."
4) "We learn to detach with love and to give ourselves and others tough love."
"It seems so selfish to ignore someone, but as one woman in our program explained, Thats not what Al-Anon means by detachment. Its really tough love ..."
"I think you will find Alanon very helpful. Tough love and detaching with love are hard for us people pleasers to learn to do."
Kerrbear,
Great thread, that you for starting this, and showing some things.
I hope you are ok, and things are as best as they can be. Not sure if Kyle showed up yet, but I am still sending prayers.....
Be good to you,
Love,
Tina
Great thread, that you for starting this, and showing some things.
I hope you are ok, and things are as best as they can be. Not sure if Kyle showed up yet, but I am still sending prayers.....
Be good to you,
Love,
Tina
This has been a GREAT topic. I'm still struggling with the whole detachment concept, but am learning that detachment is different for each and every one of us. For some of us it means a total clean break to maintain sanity, for others, putting more locks on the doors before opening them back up. Perhaps for some of us to really show how much we love someone who is addicted is to let them completely go with the thought they may never be back.
Again, great thoughts and thanks again for being there!
Again, great thoughts and thanks again for being there!
I am in recovery myself and had been trying to help my friend who was dealing with her active alcoholic husband. She refused to go to Al-anon and was becoming very sick herself. She was calling me and dumping on me, ignoring my pleas to go to a support group or to get professional help. Finally one night she became emotionally abusive to me(I was not telling her what she wanted to hear). I have had to detatch from her, treating her as I would someone who was actively using.
It is just awful -the effect this disease has on the entire family. I am very sad that I have had to detatch from her,but I hope that if she doesn't have me to be her "counseler" that she will hit her emotional bottom and seek help.
This board gives me such hope and courage in doing the next right thing. I am so grateful for the wonderful wisdom that Al-anon and message boards like this have to offer.
God Bless.
It is just awful -the effect this disease has on the entire family. I am very sad that I have had to detatch from her,but I hope that if she doesn't have me to be her "counseler" that she will hit her emotional bottom and seek help.
This board gives me such hope and courage in doing the next right thing. I am so grateful for the wonderful wisdom that Al-anon and message boards like this have to offer.
God Bless.
