August, you put it perfectly. That is exactly what the program is about, IMHO. I also scoff at rudeness, in fact, I resent it. It puts up defenses, and then my ears shut. Now how would rudeness and moral superiority help someone who is in need of help? That is exactly why I choose my meetings carefully. I need the program, but don't need the sick assholes in it that think they are better than everyone else because they have more time. It isn't about the quantity of sobriety, IT IS THE QUALITY. August, you have a clear and precise message to give. If you sponsor people, they should find themselves fortunate.
This disease has knocked me on my cocky little a**, and taught me some humility. For that I am greatful, it is through defeat that we learn to be humble. Through humility, we get the best gifts in life.
I gotta go get my butt to a meeting..
kerry
I agree with Jackie. If "tough love" is used, it should only be by a person VERY close to the person in need. And if they use though love, love better be there. I've seen people use it who don't love the person and have no intention of staying by their side. I'm sorry EVERYONE if I sound preachy, but it's real easy to get "high" on ourselves and start beating others up if you have been clean and sober for 30-60-90 days. But those days really mean nothing. Anyone here can relaspe. If you are 60 days clean, God love you and GREAT. 60 days is only two months though, and in the big picture, two months don't mean a heck of a lot. I know it's a milestone for anyone. And it's tough for anyone to reach that 60 mark. However, to get up and start beating others and feeling really proud of yourself at 60 days is nuts. We all have a problem, we all need to solve it and the last thing anyone needs is someone getting all proud of themselves after 60 days and beating up someone else because they feel so self-righteous.
August:
I wasn't going to post on this board for awhile due to way too much drama for me. My friend, you are such an asset to this board. You get it and it shows. You are a wonderful example of recovery. I believe that you speak so eloquently and you are not caught up in "look at me." I don't know much, but I do like your style and your basic attraction to the program that you exhibit. I definitely see people who are drawn to you. You are an attraction not a promotion and I really respect that about you.
Peace,
Rachel
I wasn't going to post on this board for awhile due to way too much drama for me. My friend, you are such an asset to this board. You get it and it shows. You are a wonderful example of recovery. I believe that you speak so eloquently and you are not caught up in "look at me." I don't know much, but I do like your style and your basic attraction to the program that you exhibit. I definitely see people who are drawn to you. You are an attraction not a promotion and I really respect that about you.
Peace,
Rachel
Maybe what is being mistaken for tough love here, is actually telling what has worked for us. For some that means getting our butts kicked, for some it means mollycoddling and for others it means God's intervention (which I personally think is a crock, he took away one addiction, but won't take another? What is that? Did you all of the sudden fall from grace? Most likely it's because you are an ADDICT).
I don't know any of you. And that means the people I have been talking to since Feb. and the newcomers to the board yesterday. I only know what people want to present and when they ask for help, I tell them my opinion and what works for me. If they are ready to start a recovery, they come here and reach out. Take it or leave it. If it's too abrasive for one, it has been a life saver for another. I'll take that approach and chance any day.
We can debate this to kingdom come and everyone will still hold on to their opinions. Not a problem. Respect mine as I respect yours. Don't like what I have to say? Don't read it. Let the person that it was said too, decide what works for them. It's their cross to bear, not yours. Being tough doesn't mean I'm not compassionate. Just means I won't let you wallow in your own BS if you truely want help. Most here do. Some are just here for the drama.
Want to know what this is really about? Go to a meeting. Start working the steps and then get back to us.
Cowgirl
I don't know any of you. And that means the people I have been talking to since Feb. and the newcomers to the board yesterday. I only know what people want to present and when they ask for help, I tell them my opinion and what works for me. If they are ready to start a recovery, they come here and reach out. Take it or leave it. If it's too abrasive for one, it has been a life saver for another. I'll take that approach and chance any day.
We can debate this to kingdom come and everyone will still hold on to their opinions. Not a problem. Respect mine as I respect yours. Don't like what I have to say? Don't read it. Let the person that it was said too, decide what works for them. It's their cross to bear, not yours. Being tough doesn't mean I'm not compassionate. Just means I won't let you wallow in your own BS if you truely want help. Most here do. Some are just here for the drama.
Want to know what this is really about? Go to a meeting. Start working the steps and then get back to us.
Cowgirl
Cowgirl,
Now that's putting it the way it is. I thank you for your honesty and your approach to things.
Love,
Now that's putting it the way it is. I thank you for your honesty and your approach to things.
Love,
Thank you Sharon for validating my feelings...that hasn't been happening here for awhile. Seems I'm constantly having to defend myself. Gets a little old.
I love you girlie..
Cowgirl
I love you girlie..
Cowgirl
For those of you who would like to learn more about working with others, I recommend the following text.
http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/.../chapter_7.html
http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/.../chapter_7.html
cowgirl...
what was that phrase...?.... validating feelings.... wow what a concept... I know I am being sarcastic but.... oh well never mind...
in your post you pretty much took the final words right out of my mouth...
To the rest..
I hope not to have to offend it anymore .... putting together the time that I have hasnt been easy but I have done it doing what I have been told to do I have only tried to share that with others .... I guess that maybe it is better for them to suffer a little more before they will get it and I should just sit back and let it happen.... that is not usually in my nature but hea... I can adjust.....
anyhoo...I guess I should say thanks for my kick in the butt or where ever I should recieve it as it seems that to reach out and just tell it like it is .. is to have questioned your motives in doing so and a whole host of other analitical garbage instead of just taking it as one addict trying to simply help another....
teresa
what was that phrase...?.... validating feelings.... wow what a concept... I know I am being sarcastic but.... oh well never mind...
in your post you pretty much took the final words right out of my mouth...
To the rest..
I hope not to have to offend it anymore .... putting together the time that I have hasnt been easy but I have done it doing what I have been told to do I have only tried to share that with others .... I guess that maybe it is better for them to suffer a little more before they will get it and I should just sit back and let it happen.... that is not usually in my nature but hea... I can adjust.....
anyhoo...I guess I should say thanks for my kick in the butt or where ever I should recieve it as it seems that to reach out and just tell it like it is .. is to have questioned your motives in doing so and a whole host of other analitical garbage instead of just taking it as one addict trying to simply help another....
teresa
August- Chap 7 is a voice of reason, as you are. Thank you so much for being here.
August:
The Big Book, what a concept! Thanks again for the grounding.
Rachel
The Big Book, what a concept! Thanks again for the grounding.
Rachel
Okay I'm jumping on this train just for a minute.
On tough love and even "telling it like it is". In my experience and believe you me I have had alot, tough love needs to be exercised with extreme caution and awareness.
I worked with a group once that brutaly tore down the egos until there was nothng left but an empty vessel and then they rebuilt it. It worked because it was done after and only after trust was built between those involved and love was never ever questioned. Ego is an amazing thing and at some point it must be released. I did not fare well with this approach in part because my confidence was already shattered upon arrival.
Later did some work with a chiropractic group who also practiced tough love with so much love along side it. I was not expected to walk and they had me climbing 40 ft. telephone poles and jumping off, crawling because I couldn't run and actually seeing I didn't need that leg to do whatever it was I wanted to do. They were relentless. They took away my crutches and pushed me to my end so many times. At the same time I was able to gain so much from their teachings. And on top of it there was never any doubt how much I was loved.
These were people who took me home with them after surgery without me ever even asking. Eventually, I did a firewalk with them. It was a miracle to walk again let alone walk on burning coals!. I'm forever grateful.
Finally, I had a physician I worked with who practiced tough love in an effort to get me back after a stroke. Her tough love did not work well because I had no short term memory. It was counterproductive at best but in the end it did motivate me learn new ways of remembering, organizing, and setting boundaries. It sure did hurt our relationship though and this was one of my best friends. Someone who no doubt loves me very very much. We are rebuilding.
As I see it without awareness, trust, skillful means, and unconditional love "tough love" should not be used. I agree coddling is also not the answer but there is a way to be honest and truthful without ripping a person. The idea for me is to do no harm. I have used everything I have ever learned to try to help people. I have rarely needed to use tough love. In this forum I feel as though there are alot of people flexing their muscles to stroke their ego, look good, or attempt to buddy up with others. All I ask is that you look to see what your truest intention is before you exercise your "tough love". Ask yourself if and how it will serve the other person. Are you sharing your life experience or are you just being mean. I am by no means thin skinned. I do not like negativity as it just doesn't serve me. This is however, just my experience.
Whatever gets you there and only you can answer this. I wish you all the best in your recovery.
Peace,
PM
On tough love and even "telling it like it is". In my experience and believe you me I have had alot, tough love needs to be exercised with extreme caution and awareness.
I worked with a group once that brutaly tore down the egos until there was nothng left but an empty vessel and then they rebuilt it. It worked because it was done after and only after trust was built between those involved and love was never ever questioned. Ego is an amazing thing and at some point it must be released. I did not fare well with this approach in part because my confidence was already shattered upon arrival.
Later did some work with a chiropractic group who also practiced tough love with so much love along side it. I was not expected to walk and they had me climbing 40 ft. telephone poles and jumping off, crawling because I couldn't run and actually seeing I didn't need that leg to do whatever it was I wanted to do. They were relentless. They took away my crutches and pushed me to my end so many times. At the same time I was able to gain so much from their teachings. And on top of it there was never any doubt how much I was loved.
These were people who took me home with them after surgery without me ever even asking. Eventually, I did a firewalk with them. It was a miracle to walk again let alone walk on burning coals!. I'm forever grateful.
Finally, I had a physician I worked with who practiced tough love in an effort to get me back after a stroke. Her tough love did not work well because I had no short term memory. It was counterproductive at best but in the end it did motivate me learn new ways of remembering, organizing, and setting boundaries. It sure did hurt our relationship though and this was one of my best friends. Someone who no doubt loves me very very much. We are rebuilding.
As I see it without awareness, trust, skillful means, and unconditional love "tough love" should not be used. I agree coddling is also not the answer but there is a way to be honest and truthful without ripping a person. The idea for me is to do no harm. I have used everything I have ever learned to try to help people. I have rarely needed to use tough love. In this forum I feel as though there are alot of people flexing their muscles to stroke their ego, look good, or attempt to buddy up with others. All I ask is that you look to see what your truest intention is before you exercise your "tough love". Ask yourself if and how it will serve the other person. Are you sharing your life experience or are you just being mean. I am by no means thin skinned. I do not like negativity as it just doesn't serve me. This is however, just my experience.
Whatever gets you there and only you can answer this. I wish you all the best in your recovery.
Peace,
PM
Dear Cowgirl..........
What a great post...........and you are so correct to say that being tough does not mean a lack of compassion. Too many people confuse this concept.......But on the other hand when your nerves are all rattled and you are looking for any excuse it is easy to lash out at the person who is tough.........You must look behind it and understand where this is tough person is coming from.....I remember 4 months ago when I was starting to get ahead of myself one person here pointed some things out to me which I could have confused with meaness........She was being tough with compassion.........I am grateful that I had the wisdom at that time to understand where she was coming from. Today that person is one of my closest friends ( ty Sharon)........As so are you Cowgirl.........So dear heart.......your compassion shines through regardless of how tough others may perceive you to be.
God Bless and Big Hugs.........Rus
What a great post...........and you are so correct to say that being tough does not mean a lack of compassion. Too many people confuse this concept.......But on the other hand when your nerves are all rattled and you are looking for any excuse it is easy to lash out at the person who is tough.........You must look behind it and understand where this is tough person is coming from.....I remember 4 months ago when I was starting to get ahead of myself one person here pointed some things out to me which I could have confused with meaness........She was being tough with compassion.........I am grateful that I had the wisdom at that time to understand where she was coming from. Today that person is one of my closest friends ( ty Sharon)........As so are you Cowgirl.........So dear heart.......your compassion shines through regardless of how tough others may perceive you to be.
God Bless and Big Hugs.........Rus
Hey Rus, boy, all I can say to your post is "ditto". Thanks to everyone who didn't blow sunshine up my a**. I do so apreciate it. And by the way, if I ever come here or anywhere else and you see I'm blowing my recovery.....kick my a** again. Now that these tough folks are my friends, I expect it more than ever. To not do so would quickly show me how meaningless I was to them. I'm certainly not coming to this board for the first time, there's no possible reason for anyone to coddle me nor would I ever want it. Anyone who comes here who is new, do yourself a favor, let these guys tell you like it is. They didn't get clean and stay that way by accident. It took work and lots of it. I will gladly walk in their footsteps anyday. Love you guys, and you all definatly know who you are. Kat
Nice post too thank you Guess,its good to see both sides of the fence and I do have to say I agree with some of what you have said,Ive seen the group jump to their mates defence and gang up and Ive seen the group jump in to help the newcomer but as soon as the newcomer says they are not interested in NA,AA,they soon lose their interest and if anyone here reads most of the postings they would have to agree that this does happen,personally I believe what ever works to keep you away from using is the way to go.
Now Im going to say something here that is not from me or my personal belief,Ive got a friend who used to be a raging junkie,you know guys,one of the ones who would do armed holdups on chemist shops to get his next fix,well he ended up doing some time and before his court case he went on the methadone program and when he was released he went back on it as he felt he would use again,well its now about 6 years since he has used a needle and it is about 7 months since he weaned himself off the methadone program and he now owns his own business and things are really looking good for him,well recently I said to him that I thought I would have to give NA a go as I was struggling and he said to me,dont go there,he said to try and get the attitude that I was just going to not ever use and try not to think about drugs each day and get on with living my life and to keep away from NA as most of the clean ones there are only there so they can see that their are weaker people then them around and they are there to remind themselves of that.I also want to point this out,this guy does do stuff to help other drug addicts,he goes into town twice a week at nite and this group go around in a van handing out sandwiches and hot soup mainly to the young ones and they also hand out pamphlets giving advice on safety and social welfare options etc.
As I said that was his opinion,not mine,Im still tossing things around,as I said at the start,whatever works to keep you clean and if it turns out to be NA for me I will be grateful.
Now Im going to say something here that is not from me or my personal belief,Ive got a friend who used to be a raging junkie,you know guys,one of the ones who would do armed holdups on chemist shops to get his next fix,well he ended up doing some time and before his court case he went on the methadone program and when he was released he went back on it as he felt he would use again,well its now about 6 years since he has used a needle and it is about 7 months since he weaned himself off the methadone program and he now owns his own business and things are really looking good for him,well recently I said to him that I thought I would have to give NA a go as I was struggling and he said to me,dont go there,he said to try and get the attitude that I was just going to not ever use and try not to think about drugs each day and get on with living my life and to keep away from NA as most of the clean ones there are only there so they can see that their are weaker people then them around and they are there to remind themselves of that.I also want to point this out,this guy does do stuff to help other drug addicts,he goes into town twice a week at nite and this group go around in a van handing out sandwiches and hot soup mainly to the young ones and they also hand out pamphlets giving advice on safety and social welfare options etc.
As I said that was his opinion,not mine,Im still tossing things around,as I said at the start,whatever works to keep you clean and if it turns out to be NA for me I will be grateful.
