Oh I think there's plenty of people who have done the steps but still haven't made a significant dent in their underlying issues. I've read many people who are clearly in the process of healing (as most of us are) who have written on here about having done the steps a number of times and getting more and more out of the experience each time. I'm just saying that the symptoms are symptomatic of underlying emotional, psychological and yes, spiritual issues that have yet to be addressed. And sometimes that requires professional help. I also feel that an important part of this is having a loving witness to the process, whether that be a good sponsor or a good counsellor - or perhaps a good pastor, priest or mentor. I make no claim for ultimate knowledge about this, just my own experience and what I've read of others'. For some, AA holds the key )or arrives for them at the right time) for others counselling (or arrives for them at the right time). That's all. The point - and glory - is that there are lots of ways to find health and happiness AND there seems to be some common elements in them - and that makes sense in terms of the healing of these kinds of issues.
My experience and a source of strength and hope.
Have a lovely day!
M x
Kaz,
Are you working the steps with a sponsor? I commend your courage to jump in and work the program.
xoxo
Stacey
Are you working the steps with a sponsor? I commend your courage to jump in and work the program.
xoxo
Stacey
Hi all,
I'm not a club member per se, and I haven't actually worked the steps as they are laid down in AlAnon. I will say, however, that the more I grow in my recovery from codependence and as an ACOA, I recognize how closely my own work on myself parallels the step work done by others. I attended AlAnon for awhile, and have been here for about three years, and while I am either too stubborn or too lazy to do the step work as prescribed, I feel the steps are the obvious basis for my recovery program. (When I read Val's posts I get that sense of her personal work as well.) I've read the literature, I've listened to all of you, I have inventoried myself and my motives, and have no problem admitting my transgressions to anyone...it helps. So in a way I consider myself aligned with the 12 step philosophy...does that make sense?
You guys rock~M&M
I'm not a club member per se, and I haven't actually worked the steps as they are laid down in AlAnon. I will say, however, that the more I grow in my recovery from codependence and as an ACOA, I recognize how closely my own work on myself parallels the step work done by others. I attended AlAnon for awhile, and have been here for about three years, and while I am either too stubborn or too lazy to do the step work as prescribed, I feel the steps are the obvious basis for my recovery program. (When I read Val's posts I get that sense of her personal work as well.) I've read the literature, I've listened to all of you, I have inventoried myself and my motives, and have no problem admitting my transgressions to anyone...it helps. So in a way I consider myself aligned with the 12 step philosophy...does that make sense?
You guys rock~M&M
Hi momNmore,
It makes perfect sense to me. If I can share my esh with you I'll say that the underlying, key issues "tasks" or challenges in the various ways of dealing with addictions and emotional problems of all kinds seem to be fundamentally the same.
The bit that I think (just my humble opinion) is missing from the do-it-yourself approach is that some of us (me included) have a major problem trusting other human beings. I didn't THINK I lacked trust but at a deep unconscious level there was NO WAY I was going to rely on another human being. The underlying terror was that it would cost me not just my life but my spirit. I didn't know that's how I felt. I gained that insight gradually over a year or two in recovery.
That terror was why I'd worked so hard as a youngster to become academically good; it explained why I'd become so good in debating with people; it explained why I wasn't good at taking criticism (I'd convince people they were wrong and I was right); it explained why I felt the need to control my environment and wasn't comfortable with sponteneity (other people might get to close, take control of the situation and of me, and something terrible might happen); and I realise now it's why I kept my distance from women who loved me. Not from sex, which needn't always involve a deep and honest intimate connection, but from a genuine intimacy, a risk. I avoided dependence at all costs. The risk of rejection/betrayal was too great and too terrifying.
But we all have dependency needs. Vaillant describes AA as a "substitute dependency". In AA people learn they CAN trust other people. In counselling people learn they CAN trust other people. Not just at an intellectual, conscious level, but a deep and true emotional level where these things are REALLY decided for us (this isn't "just" from the psychotherapeutic literature, the neuroscience backs this up).
So my deep, real, glorious freedom from alcohol (which "met" my dependency needs and provided those "loving" feelings inside which I didn't even KNOW I was missing) began when I learnt to let myself relax into the love of another person who has shown me for two years I am accepted and supported and respected and cared about and, yes, loved in a wonderful way, by another human being.
Another human being.
It is part of learning I am connected not just to every other human being, but to everything there is. And this I make sense of in this way, by reference to a beautiful quote I saw in a film I thought I'd dislike but that was gently inspiring -
"What's God like? The spirit that animates all life and binds everything in the Universe together."
He/She/It does, whatever it is...the closest I can come to describing what I have felt about this is the old, old description:
God is Love.
And I feel Him flowing into me and out through me and my body giggles at the joy of it. Pretty much all the time.
Now I have to do the washing up, and it will be beautiful.
Much love,
Martin x
It makes perfect sense to me. If I can share my esh with you I'll say that the underlying, key issues "tasks" or challenges in the various ways of dealing with addictions and emotional problems of all kinds seem to be fundamentally the same.
The bit that I think (just my humble opinion) is missing from the do-it-yourself approach is that some of us (me included) have a major problem trusting other human beings. I didn't THINK I lacked trust but at a deep unconscious level there was NO WAY I was going to rely on another human being. The underlying terror was that it would cost me not just my life but my spirit. I didn't know that's how I felt. I gained that insight gradually over a year or two in recovery.
That terror was why I'd worked so hard as a youngster to become academically good; it explained why I'd become so good in debating with people; it explained why I wasn't good at taking criticism (I'd convince people they were wrong and I was right); it explained why I felt the need to control my environment and wasn't comfortable with sponteneity (other people might get to close, take control of the situation and of me, and something terrible might happen); and I realise now it's why I kept my distance from women who loved me. Not from sex, which needn't always involve a deep and honest intimate connection, but from a genuine intimacy, a risk. I avoided dependence at all costs. The risk of rejection/betrayal was too great and too terrifying.
But we all have dependency needs. Vaillant describes AA as a "substitute dependency". In AA people learn they CAN trust other people. In counselling people learn they CAN trust other people. Not just at an intellectual, conscious level, but a deep and true emotional level where these things are REALLY decided for us (this isn't "just" from the psychotherapeutic literature, the neuroscience backs this up).
So my deep, real, glorious freedom from alcohol (which "met" my dependency needs and provided those "loving" feelings inside which I didn't even KNOW I was missing) began when I learnt to let myself relax into the love of another person who has shown me for two years I am accepted and supported and respected and cared about and, yes, loved in a wonderful way, by another human being.
Another human being.
It is part of learning I am connected not just to every other human being, but to everything there is. And this I make sense of in this way, by reference to a beautiful quote I saw in a film I thought I'd dislike but that was gently inspiring -
"What's God like? The spirit that animates all life and binds everything in the Universe together."
He/She/It does, whatever it is...the closest I can come to describing what I have felt about this is the old, old description:
God is Love.
And I feel Him flowing into me and out through me and my body giggles at the joy of it. Pretty much all the time.
Now I have to do the washing up, and it will be beautiful.
Much love,
Martin x
I thought about this a bit and it seems right for me to post it.
I had to keep an emotional distance, put myself in a "safe" place emotionally. Some people isolate altogether, others, like me keep a safe distance by avoiding emotional risks and/or cutting off feelings as much as possible (all at an unconscious level).
This risk avoidance takes many forms. One aspect is trying to build a "perfect" image, in order to avoid criticism (really, deep down, the need is to avoid self-criticism because self-esteem is low/non existant and any form of criticism leads to inner despair and destruction). And because of the way I was brought up, that desire to avoid criticism led me to try to be ultra "good" and ultra "kind". So I was superbly programmed to step into a role we label "co-dependent" when the opportunity arrived.
Codependence is a cluster of defences created to keep one safe. At it's least harmful it is a way of avoiding being terribly hurt by focusing on the needs (and "flaws") of another. If I'm trying to "help/rescue" YOU, I MUST be the good guy, yes? I'm safe. I'm beyond criticism. Look what I have to deal with? Poor me. I'm a bit of a hero, yes? And Al-anon and message boards can encourage that (both are brilliant, but nothing built by Man is perfect). this is why Al-anon tries to encourage people to focus on healing themselves with the Steps etc. Many of US have issues we need help with too, and we're in denial just as deep as the alcoholic/addict. We're just addicted to a different source of "feel good" feelings to fill the void in self-esteem and (proper) self-love. Love of our human spirit/soul/life force - a healthy self-love that is fundamental to mental and emotional well-being.
At it's worst, codependence is what Scott M Peck described as "evil". We can be "people of the lie", people who pretend we're perfect (out of unconscious need and desperation) and who keep others sick by constantly placing ourselves in a position of being competent and "knowing best" about their illness or "problems". This helps us feel safe and "good" and "loving", but at the cost of disempowering them and creating a relationship which encourages their dependence on US, which is exactly what they DON'T need. One reason why AA attracts and doesn't promote, why they Steps etc are "suggestions" and why there is no Authority but God...HPs etc....to avoid addicts turning from alcohol to codependency in the role of "helper"/spnsor etc....keeping TWO people sick instead of getting themselves truly well.
In ALL of this the thing to remember is that NONE of us CHOSE this consciously. Yes, I chose to drink. Yes, "I" played the codependent role and (I'm sad to say) probably damaged my ex as a result. But I didn't know any of this. I do now. Finding out was painful, but necessary if I was to begin to heal. I'm beginning to heal. Baby steps.
Today I surrender to the Universe. I do not know what is hidden from me. My unconscious mind knows a lot more than "I" do - although my unconscious is "me" too...... I accept that in my ignorance I was addicted to a variety of things, which my unconscious led me to to protect me from pain. I'm grateful that it found a way to nudge me towards healing. And I believe (as did Jung) that within my unconscious mind/inner spirit is a profound connection with the Universe and with something sacred and loving beyond all my understanding.
I read somewhere that the original meaning of the word "sin" was "to miss the point".
And my esh is that despite what Peck believed there is no evil, only mistakes. We miss the point. We're always doing our best but we get it wrong because we get bent out of shape and can't see clearly because we're not ready to face things. The Universe NEVER stops loving us and NEVER stops nudging us towards the light. And if we can allow ourselves to truly trust another, the door opens and light and love flows right in and never stops.
My esh , that's all.
Martin x
I had to keep an emotional distance, put myself in a "safe" place emotionally. Some people isolate altogether, others, like me keep a safe distance by avoiding emotional risks and/or cutting off feelings as much as possible (all at an unconscious level).
This risk avoidance takes many forms. One aspect is trying to build a "perfect" image, in order to avoid criticism (really, deep down, the need is to avoid self-criticism because self-esteem is low/non existant and any form of criticism leads to inner despair and destruction). And because of the way I was brought up, that desire to avoid criticism led me to try to be ultra "good" and ultra "kind". So I was superbly programmed to step into a role we label "co-dependent" when the opportunity arrived.
Codependence is a cluster of defences created to keep one safe. At it's least harmful it is a way of avoiding being terribly hurt by focusing on the needs (and "flaws") of another. If I'm trying to "help/rescue" YOU, I MUST be the good guy, yes? I'm safe. I'm beyond criticism. Look what I have to deal with? Poor me. I'm a bit of a hero, yes? And Al-anon and message boards can encourage that (both are brilliant, but nothing built by Man is perfect). this is why Al-anon tries to encourage people to focus on healing themselves with the Steps etc. Many of US have issues we need help with too, and we're in denial just as deep as the alcoholic/addict. We're just addicted to a different source of "feel good" feelings to fill the void in self-esteem and (proper) self-love. Love of our human spirit/soul/life force - a healthy self-love that is fundamental to mental and emotional well-being.
At it's worst, codependence is what Scott M Peck described as "evil". We can be "people of the lie", people who pretend we're perfect (out of unconscious need and desperation) and who keep others sick by constantly placing ourselves in a position of being competent and "knowing best" about their illness or "problems". This helps us feel safe and "good" and "loving", but at the cost of disempowering them and creating a relationship which encourages their dependence on US, which is exactly what they DON'T need. One reason why AA attracts and doesn't promote, why they Steps etc are "suggestions" and why there is no Authority but God...HPs etc....to avoid addicts turning from alcohol to codependency in the role of "helper"/spnsor etc....keeping TWO people sick instead of getting themselves truly well.
In ALL of this the thing to remember is that NONE of us CHOSE this consciously. Yes, I chose to drink. Yes, "I" played the codependent role and (I'm sad to say) probably damaged my ex as a result. But I didn't know any of this. I do now. Finding out was painful, but necessary if I was to begin to heal. I'm beginning to heal. Baby steps.
Today I surrender to the Universe. I do not know what is hidden from me. My unconscious mind knows a lot more than "I" do - although my unconscious is "me" too...... I accept that in my ignorance I was addicted to a variety of things, which my unconscious led me to to protect me from pain. I'm grateful that it found a way to nudge me towards healing. And I believe (as did Jung) that within my unconscious mind/inner spirit is a profound connection with the Universe and with something sacred and loving beyond all my understanding.
I read somewhere that the original meaning of the word "sin" was "to miss the point".
And my esh is that despite what Peck believed there is no evil, only mistakes. We miss the point. We're always doing our best but we get it wrong because we get bent out of shape and can't see clearly because we're not ready to face things. The Universe NEVER stops loving us and NEVER stops nudging us towards the light. And if we can allow ourselves to truly trust another, the door opens and light and love flows right in and never stops.
My esh , that's all.
Martin x
Sorry for the third post - I don't log in anymore so I can't edit and I realised that I might have written about Peck in a way that isn't clear enough.
As I understand it he did believe that evil was real, but he was clear that people who "did" things he described as "evil" were victims of that evil too. In other words, human beings get caught up in dynamics and behaviour that he would describe as "evil" (presumably because of it's impact) without BEING evil people themselves.
I think the distinction is important. ALL human beings are, in their soul, good. No matter what they DO. Even the most awful deeds are done as a response to the reality of the universe AS THAT PERSON EXPERIENCES IT. Their way of being in the world is a result of their experience of it, and this bends us all a bit out of shape, some more than others.
My experience of the love in the Universe means I do not doubt that this is true.
As always, only my esh and stuff I've stumbled across....there are no coincidences...lol....I guess and hope we all always get what we, as individual souls, need.
M
As I understand it he did believe that evil was real, but he was clear that people who "did" things he described as "evil" were victims of that evil too. In other words, human beings get caught up in dynamics and behaviour that he would describe as "evil" (presumably because of it's impact) without BEING evil people themselves.
I think the distinction is important. ALL human beings are, in their soul, good. No matter what they DO. Even the most awful deeds are done as a response to the reality of the universe AS THAT PERSON EXPERIENCES IT. Their way of being in the world is a result of their experience of it, and this bends us all a bit out of shape, some more than others.
My experience of the love in the Universe means I do not doubt that this is true.
As always, only my esh and stuff I've stumbled across....there are no coincidences...lol....I guess and hope we all always get what we, as individual souls, need.
M
Hi all,
Yestacey and thanks, I am stepping with a sponser and I am glad for the challenges. It is hard, to be honest is humbling and I am already much different a person. I am more centred, calmer and more in control.
Martin, I too have been a bloody minded, hard nosed, independant academic. Trouble is, my intellegence doesn't measure well if IQ is not a help when other humans need EQ.In being good, kind, helpful and knowledgable, I got lost and alone and had no-one to share real feelings and fears with. This fed the fear of not being acceptable, kept me separate and I had only myself to rely on for all feelings of self worth. Aside from work, I had no sense of achievement.
I work in the operating suite where acuracy, specifics, science and exactitude are higher qualities required to the totally dependant unconscious patient rather than connecting with emotions. In the trauma theatres, one's own felings and emotional attatchment were severed because the life and death situation always overrode personal feelings. I have ended up battle fatigued. Not a good look. Just look at those who served in Vietnam and thhat'd be me with no reprieve.
Trouble is, my relationships outside work ( all those significant to my special others) were not strong and I had an exhalted opinion of myself. Albeit born of necessity to survive at first, no longer required in the years past but I have been formed by my training and modelled by my need to survive, lead the troops and have lost me in the process.
Debating teams don't get you points when negotionating with teenage boys or the aged but capable elderly of whom comprise my family.
I too do not believe in coincidence. I call it godincidence. Accidently reading a chapter in German prior to a comprehension test , which I have done, nor having a patient with a rare surgical complication in the workplace before snagging this as a question in a post grad paper in operating suite / management /pharmacology papers is another example. I have seeen a lot of Godincidences in my life. Shame I didn't choose to heed my inner voice last Monday when I wanted to stay home, read a novel and instead went out, got fed a pile of champagne at a breakfast before carrying on to my horsey friends , getting moved on from their place just in time to have to frive another 30 mins to become very drunk, crash my car and get scraped up off the side of the road. My brains were shot.
My diseaserecovery has made me a more gentle person on myself now. I am so far from perfect it is a laugh. The people who I thought very rough have been the first to tell me I was a goof for not rushing to them when I had my car accident this week and they would have been over with the tea and sympathy in a shot.This I learned today when they learned for the first time of what happened. My seatbelt burns and bruises on my arms have become quite spectacular by now. LOL
My pride has beeen left on the highest shelf where I, who am short, cannot reach it. Humbly I work with the wise AA sposer, my mentor in the church and my horsey friends have held out the hand of friendship and support. Each offer the help I need to recover. My family are supportive and kind too.
My dented confidence is normal. My second best lesson is regaing the honesty of the shares here.
Mom and more is someone with whom I share the codependance with. First my alcohloic ex-husband then my manipulative mother. Since my prang this week, my mother has been back to her "normal " self. When I was independant of her, she was suicidal and believed my boys and I wanted her out of our lives. Now I have been proven a stuff up, she is relaxed, happy even and happy with my sons with whom she has rekindled the type of relationship and raport she had up to last year, before she was on narcotic analgesia. She has just stopped using her fentanyl drug about a month ago and now is her normal, balanced self.
Too bad I has stuffed up the family with my drinking to escape. I don't have any need to any more but I dread the outcome of my driving charge. If i have to catch a bus/ train/train or , God I pray, have an Exceptional licence for work, I will still do it and work my arse off to make amends to my family.
It must have been God's plan for me to be spared on that day and make something of myself instead of wasting my opportunities.
Cheers to you all and thank you to those who think up these good threads. When I get enough under my belt I may be ready to add to a thready.
Bye for now. kaz from oz.
Yestacey and thanks, I am stepping with a sponser and I am glad for the challenges. It is hard, to be honest is humbling and I am already much different a person. I am more centred, calmer and more in control.
Martin, I too have been a bloody minded, hard nosed, independant academic. Trouble is, my intellegence doesn't measure well if IQ is not a help when other humans need EQ.In being good, kind, helpful and knowledgable, I got lost and alone and had no-one to share real feelings and fears with. This fed the fear of not being acceptable, kept me separate and I had only myself to rely on for all feelings of self worth. Aside from work, I had no sense of achievement.
I work in the operating suite where acuracy, specifics, science and exactitude are higher qualities required to the totally dependant unconscious patient rather than connecting with emotions. In the trauma theatres, one's own felings and emotional attatchment were severed because the life and death situation always overrode personal feelings. I have ended up battle fatigued. Not a good look. Just look at those who served in Vietnam and thhat'd be me with no reprieve.
Trouble is, my relationships outside work ( all those significant to my special others) were not strong and I had an exhalted opinion of myself. Albeit born of necessity to survive at first, no longer required in the years past but I have been formed by my training and modelled by my need to survive, lead the troops and have lost me in the process.
Debating teams don't get you points when negotionating with teenage boys or the aged but capable elderly of whom comprise my family.
I too do not believe in coincidence. I call it godincidence. Accidently reading a chapter in German prior to a comprehension test , which I have done, nor having a patient with a rare surgical complication in the workplace before snagging this as a question in a post grad paper in operating suite / management /pharmacology papers is another example. I have seeen a lot of Godincidences in my life. Shame I didn't choose to heed my inner voice last Monday when I wanted to stay home, read a novel and instead went out, got fed a pile of champagne at a breakfast before carrying on to my horsey friends , getting moved on from their place just in time to have to frive another 30 mins to become very drunk, crash my car and get scraped up off the side of the road. My brains were shot.
My diseaserecovery has made me a more gentle person on myself now. I am so far from perfect it is a laugh. The people who I thought very rough have been the first to tell me I was a goof for not rushing to them when I had my car accident this week and they would have been over with the tea and sympathy in a shot.This I learned today when they learned for the first time of what happened. My seatbelt burns and bruises on my arms have become quite spectacular by now. LOL
My pride has beeen left on the highest shelf where I, who am short, cannot reach it. Humbly I work with the wise AA sposer, my mentor in the church and my horsey friends have held out the hand of friendship and support. Each offer the help I need to recover. My family are supportive and kind too.
My dented confidence is normal. My second best lesson is regaing the honesty of the shares here.
Mom and more is someone with whom I share the codependance with. First my alcohloic ex-husband then my manipulative mother. Since my prang this week, my mother has been back to her "normal " self. When I was independant of her, she was suicidal and believed my boys and I wanted her out of our lives. Now I have been proven a stuff up, she is relaxed, happy even and happy with my sons with whom she has rekindled the type of relationship and raport she had up to last year, before she was on narcotic analgesia. She has just stopped using her fentanyl drug about a month ago and now is her normal, balanced self.
Too bad I has stuffed up the family with my drinking to escape. I don't have any need to any more but I dread the outcome of my driving charge. If i have to catch a bus/ train/train or , God I pray, have an Exceptional licence for work, I will still do it and work my arse off to make amends to my family.
It must have been God's plan for me to be spared on that day and make something of myself instead of wasting my opportunities.
Cheers to you all and thank you to those who think up these good threads. When I get enough under my belt I may be ready to add to a thready.
Bye for now. kaz from oz.
Hi Kazz,
Life's an adventure isn't it? Just when we begin to think we might have worked it all out another door (or trap door!) opens and we learn we know nothing about how to live! After I got over THAT shock I started to enjoy the wonder of it all! You really do have a life filled with new possibilities open to you.
I'm glad you're finding the board helpful. It was a lifeline for me and I'll always be grateful to all the people here who, in different and wonderful ways have nudged me towards a healthier, happier life.
Please keep reading and sharing. Our stories - all our stories - have differences and similarities, ups and downs; but what unites us all is life. Rich, deep, glorious, shining life, and the wonders it has to offer if we will just open up and let them in.
Much love,
Martin x
Life's an adventure isn't it? Just when we begin to think we might have worked it all out another door (or trap door!) opens and we learn we know nothing about how to live! After I got over THAT shock I started to enjoy the wonder of it all! You really do have a life filled with new possibilities open to you.
I'm glad you're finding the board helpful. It was a lifeline for me and I'll always be grateful to all the people here who, in different and wonderful ways have nudged me towards a healthier, happier life.
Please keep reading and sharing. Our stories - all our stories - have differences and similarities, ups and downs; but what unites us all is life. Rich, deep, glorious, shining life, and the wonders it has to offer if we will just open up and let them in.
Much love,
Martin x
Gidday Kaz
Dont worry so much about the work licence for driving and working real hard as an amends....just keep building the desire to stay sober and bring your self honesty to meetings and talks with your sponsor.
I know a Doctor in recovery 35 years this Saturday actually and he always says his knowledge kept him drinking far longer than needed and the only way he sorted it was he ended up with a sponsor who wasnt as academic as him in his circles but who was more than his match in helping him see himself and how there was and is a better way of life one day at a time
My problem was and still is at times.
i think what others are thinking and believe myself without a word spoken
Be strong Kaz and be true, bring all the naggy stuff from the back of the mind thats surrounded in fear and give it away via meetings, sponsor and faith in a higher power and yourself
light and love Zac
Dont worry so much about the work licence for driving and working real hard as an amends....just keep building the desire to stay sober and bring your self honesty to meetings and talks with your sponsor.
I know a Doctor in recovery 35 years this Saturday actually and he always says his knowledge kept him drinking far longer than needed and the only way he sorted it was he ended up with a sponsor who wasnt as academic as him in his circles but who was more than his match in helping him see himself and how there was and is a better way of life one day at a time
My problem was and still is at times.
i think what others are thinking and believe myself without a word spoken
Be strong Kaz and be true, bring all the naggy stuff from the back of the mind thats surrounded in fear and give it away via meetings, sponsor and faith in a higher power and yourself
light and love Zac
Thank you zac for the words of reassurance and yes, I will just be me and give it to God and my wonderful helpers.
Sure is hard to be kind to yourself isn't it?
K
Sure is hard to be kind to yourself isn't it?
K
Kazz,
You mentioned a sponsor earlier, but your posts don't match because you're asking about stepping. A sponsor is someone who's done the steps and will take you through each one. #1 through #12. Until the first one's done 100%--the self honesty--there's no moving forward. The first three steps are about realizing that we aren't going to be able to do this in our heads and settling on our own concept of a Higher Power, no matter how feeble it may be at first, before moving into the 'house cleaning' that is so essential. Alcoholics will listen to recovering alcoholics when everything else fails because NOBODY understands like another alcoholic. It's that relationship that with a sponsor that enables one to work each of the steps--IN ORDER--with a sponsor leading the way. Don't drink, go to meetings, get a sponsor. Did I mention a sponsor? Stay focused, stay with the winners, stay sobah!
You mentioned a sponsor earlier, but your posts don't match because you're asking about stepping. A sponsor is someone who's done the steps and will take you through each one. #1 through #12. Until the first one's done 100%--the self honesty--there's no moving forward. The first three steps are about realizing that we aren't going to be able to do this in our heads and settling on our own concept of a Higher Power, no matter how feeble it may be at first, before moving into the 'house cleaning' that is so essential. Alcoholics will listen to recovering alcoholics when everything else fails because NOBODY understands like another alcoholic. It's that relationship that with a sponsor that enables one to work each of the steps--IN ORDER--with a sponsor leading the way. Don't drink, go to meetings, get a sponsor. Did I mention a sponsor? Stay focused, stay with the winners, stay sobah!
Thanks skg. I have asked my sponsor the questions and repeated it here too but as I am learning, it is better face to face . Yes, I will work the programme. Thanks for the reply.
K
K
K,
Thanks--and good answer. Anyone that's been a sponsor understands how important is that the sponsee get a consistent message early in the steps regarding how they're approached. Everyone approaches them pretty much the same way their sponsor delivered them, but it's hard enough to keep an alcoholic's attention without having 43 know-it-alls telling the sponsee that they're sponsor's doing it 'wrong.' I'm sure you understand?
The 4th step is an inventory. I've seen them done various ways and, let's face it, the Big Book isn't real clear, especially when one's brain is still reeling. Just write it down. There are some good threads on FEAR and COURAGE for you to consider while you're churning out your 4th. Work on it for a while--don't get ahead (isn't that a funny word? a HEAD?) in thinking about the 5th. I've heard it said in the rooms that if you don't do a 5th, you'll do a fifth.
Listen to your sponsor and share your findings. We're pulling for ya!
Thanks--and good answer. Anyone that's been a sponsor understands how important is that the sponsee get a consistent message early in the steps regarding how they're approached. Everyone approaches them pretty much the same way their sponsor delivered them, but it's hard enough to keep an alcoholic's attention without having 43 know-it-alls telling the sponsee that they're sponsor's doing it 'wrong.' I'm sure you understand?
The 4th step is an inventory. I've seen them done various ways and, let's face it, the Big Book isn't real clear, especially when one's brain is still reeling. Just write it down. There are some good threads on FEAR and COURAGE for you to consider while you're churning out your 4th. Work on it for a while--don't get ahead (isn't that a funny word? a HEAD?) in thinking about the 5th. I've heard it said in the rooms that if you don't do a 5th, you'll do a fifth.
Listen to your sponsor and share your findings. We're pulling for ya!
That really is interesting Skg. Wherever did you get the time to talk to everyone who has ever been a sponsor? ;)
And who gets to judge who the know-it-alls are? ;)
My esh is that sorting out the difference between what I know and what I fantasise and need to be true so that my worldview is reinforced by a false sense of security was a crucial step in my recovery. Still is. The only thing I know apart from my esh is that I don't know what's right for anyone else. And I can't see how anyone can, with honesty and integrity, claim that knowledge. Let alone claim it about EVERYONE. Am I wrong about that?
It's clear (only because you've said it a number of times) that your esh involves you believing that you needed someone to tell you what to do to recover. My own esh is directly opposite to that. That simply would have driven me away. Which is why we often post alternative viewpoints. That's good, because people get to get a HP and their HP gets to guide them. Not me and not you. That's good.
Acording to research a minimum of 40% of alcoholics suffer from personality disorders. And we know that persuasion and instructions don't work with them. You appear to believe this is unwillingness, wheras in fact it's an inability, a defence mechanism outside of their conscious awareness. If you offer me the choice of submit or die I'd shoot you and then blow my brains out. Or drink myself to death. However, I have discovered that it is a joy to surrender to the Universe, to a God of my understanding. No sponsor who tried to TELL me what to do would have kept me in AA. Of course, the unthinking response might be to say "your loss and you'll be back when you've had enough". My preference is to allow people the dignity - and their HP the right - to run their own lives. My preference is to not press on their triggers and drive them away from something that might save their lives. Your preference is to not let them wriggle out of something that might save their lives.
Neither approach is wrong. One works for some, the other for others. I don't get to know or choose which, and nor do you.
But NONE of it - or anything else - works for EVERYONE. Of course, I don't know that for sure, and you don't know the opposite for sure either. Because neither of us is God.
Humility is a wonderful gift.
Have a great day!
Martin
And who gets to judge who the know-it-alls are? ;)
My esh is that sorting out the difference between what I know and what I fantasise and need to be true so that my worldview is reinforced by a false sense of security was a crucial step in my recovery. Still is. The only thing I know apart from my esh is that I don't know what's right for anyone else. And I can't see how anyone can, with honesty and integrity, claim that knowledge. Let alone claim it about EVERYONE. Am I wrong about that?
It's clear (only because you've said it a number of times) that your esh involves you believing that you needed someone to tell you what to do to recover. My own esh is directly opposite to that. That simply would have driven me away. Which is why we often post alternative viewpoints. That's good, because people get to get a HP and their HP gets to guide them. Not me and not you. That's good.
Acording to research a minimum of 40% of alcoholics suffer from personality disorders. And we know that persuasion and instructions don't work with them. You appear to believe this is unwillingness, wheras in fact it's an inability, a defence mechanism outside of their conscious awareness. If you offer me the choice of submit or die I'd shoot you and then blow my brains out. Or drink myself to death. However, I have discovered that it is a joy to surrender to the Universe, to a God of my understanding. No sponsor who tried to TELL me what to do would have kept me in AA. Of course, the unthinking response might be to say "your loss and you'll be back when you've had enough". My preference is to allow people the dignity - and their HP the right - to run their own lives. My preference is to not press on their triggers and drive them away from something that might save their lives. Your preference is to not let them wriggle out of something that might save their lives.
Neither approach is wrong. One works for some, the other for others. I don't get to know or choose which, and nor do you.
But NONE of it - or anything else - works for EVERYONE. Of course, I don't know that for sure, and you don't know the opposite for sure either. Because neither of us is God.
Humility is a wonderful gift.
Have a great day!
Martin
Well, skg, you made it sound easy until the bit about if you don't do a fifth, then you'll do a fifth. A percentage of the whole lot? or do you mean something else?
Yes, thanks too for the fear threads. I have found them very useful and have had a penny or two drop when I didn't find the insight from the BB. Frankly, I must be missing something because I don't find the BB as much a guide as a repeat of the progressive downwood spiral of this perplexing diseaae , unless one mans up, gets a HP and joins the shakers and movers until one carries the batton oneself and lever lets the torch go out.
Martin , you have confused me with your deap and meaningful share. I ask, to simplify, are you being the devil's advocate with skg here or simply stating that you acknowledgethat everyone has their own need to keep vigilant daily and use that which works for them personally?
Hope you guys can help me out. It is so good to have the honesty and kindred spirit of people who undestand alcoholism. And the frankness is easier using this medium too, I find. Does anyone else find it easier to be totally truthful here or is it just the same in person?
I ask because I don't see or hear as much from my sponsor as I do work on the steps here, it seems.
I don't want to complicate what I thought you were saying. Just the opposite.
Each share is valued.
Kaz from oz where there is no volcanic dust raining down, thak goodness. :)
Yes, thanks too for the fear threads. I have found them very useful and have had a penny or two drop when I didn't find the insight from the BB. Frankly, I must be missing something because I don't find the BB as much a guide as a repeat of the progressive downwood spiral of this perplexing diseaae , unless one mans up, gets a HP and joins the shakers and movers until one carries the batton oneself and lever lets the torch go out.
Martin , you have confused me with your deap and meaningful share. I ask, to simplify, are you being the devil's advocate with skg here or simply stating that you acknowledgethat everyone has their own need to keep vigilant daily and use that which works for them personally?
Hope you guys can help me out. It is so good to have the honesty and kindred spirit of people who undestand alcoholism. And the frankness is easier using this medium too, I find. Does anyone else find it easier to be totally truthful here or is it just the same in person?
I ask because I don't see or hear as much from my sponsor as I do work on the steps here, it seems.
I don't want to complicate what I thought you were saying. Just the opposite.
Each share is valued.
Kaz from oz where there is no volcanic dust raining down, thak goodness. :)
Hi, K.
In the beginning of the journey everything seems so foreign, so new, so frustrating--partly because for me it was as if I'd never heard any of it before. I constantly remarked, "Why didn't anyone TELL me this!?" Perhaps they had, but I never could make the connection.
I did a LOT of questioning when I finally started to grab hold of the concepts. Many people here were patient and kind enough to explain things in terms I was able to understand. Mind you, I have a number of degrees, but the simplicity--no room for escape--is what kept me coming back. There are times when words needn't be spoken, too. You keep asking, digging, learning. When we start looking within we can stop going without....
The 5th steps comes after the 4th step. The little "If you don't do a 5th, you'll do a fifth," means that you've got to do the steps in order, and doing the 5th step is a huge part of getting your head clean. Those who don't, who refuse to look at themselves, generally wind up going back out (fifth of whiskey?). In fact, the chance of long term sobriety increases some 50% (according to my IDAA sponsor) for those who do the 4th and 5th steps.
I got sober thanks to AA, MY Higher Power, and this forum (ARG). If you went back and saw the hundreds of posts I made, most of them were 'discovery' comments as I went through recovery.
Keep doin' what you're doin' and you'll keep gettin' what you've been gettin'...
In the beginning of the journey everything seems so foreign, so new, so frustrating--partly because for me it was as if I'd never heard any of it before. I constantly remarked, "Why didn't anyone TELL me this!?" Perhaps they had, but I never could make the connection.
I did a LOT of questioning when I finally started to grab hold of the concepts. Many people here were patient and kind enough to explain things in terms I was able to understand. Mind you, I have a number of degrees, but the simplicity--no room for escape--is what kept me coming back. There are times when words needn't be spoken, too. You keep asking, digging, learning. When we start looking within we can stop going without....
The 5th steps comes after the 4th step. The little "If you don't do a 5th, you'll do a fifth," means that you've got to do the steps in order, and doing the 5th step is a huge part of getting your head clean. Those who don't, who refuse to look at themselves, generally wind up going back out (fifth of whiskey?). In fact, the chance of long term sobriety increases some 50% (according to my IDAA sponsor) for those who do the 4th and 5th steps.
I got sober thanks to AA, MY Higher Power, and this forum (ARG). If you went back and saw the hundreds of posts I made, most of them were 'discovery' comments as I went through recovery.
Keep doin' what you're doin' and you'll keep gettin' what you've been gettin'...
Aha. Another DING! moment. Smiles.
Cheers again.
I getcha now.
P.S. My degrees don't help me much here either. Never mind. As long as I stay teachable.
Thank you very much for taking the time out to help me everyone.
Kazz who needs zzz. It is nearly midnight here.
Have a wonderful day.
Cheers again.
I getcha now.
P.S. My degrees don't help me much here either. Never mind. As long as I stay teachable.
Thank you very much for taking the time out to help me everyone.
Kazz who needs zzz. It is nearly midnight here.
Have a wonderful day.
Hi K,
I hope you slept well!
I'm not playing devil's advocate Kazz, I'm simply offering my own experience, strength and hope; those things I've been fortunate enough to discover on my journey. There's no "right" or wrong way, imo. There's just what works for each individual. And I agree with AA that we should surrender our ego, our Will, and do our best to follow what AA calls a Higher Power (what some might describe as God, their inner spirit, best self or whatever concept works for them). I guess it's just a case of a difference of emphasis, and it's no big deal - again, imho. My esh is it's much more important to do the work than work out who's "right", because if you DO the work of AA or counselling or rehab or Smart recovery or Ratoinal recovery or Buddhism (and no doubt dozens of other practices) rather than talk or write about them then I'm pretty sure it's impossible to stay drunk and unhappy. I can never know what the "right" thing is, because I'm not God. I don't know the consequences of one way or another. All I can do is listen, learn, look deeply and honestly into my heart and make the best decision I'm capable of at that time. If I do that, I've done my bit. The rest is up to God. And I don't sweat it if someone's HP is taking them in a different direction. I don't get to SEE God's plan, just to follow my bit in it. Which I'm grateful to do!
Mx
I hope you slept well!
I'm not playing devil's advocate Kazz, I'm simply offering my own experience, strength and hope; those things I've been fortunate enough to discover on my journey. There's no "right" or wrong way, imo. There's just what works for each individual. And I agree with AA that we should surrender our ego, our Will, and do our best to follow what AA calls a Higher Power (what some might describe as God, their inner spirit, best self or whatever concept works for them). I guess it's just a case of a difference of emphasis, and it's no big deal - again, imho. My esh is it's much more important to do the work than work out who's "right", because if you DO the work of AA or counselling or rehab or Smart recovery or Ratoinal recovery or Buddhism (and no doubt dozens of other practices) rather than talk or write about them then I'm pretty sure it's impossible to stay drunk and unhappy. I can never know what the "right" thing is, because I'm not God. I don't know the consequences of one way or another. All I can do is listen, learn, look deeply and honestly into my heart and make the best decision I'm capable of at that time. If I do that, I've done my bit. The rest is up to God. And I don't sweat it if someone's HP is taking them in a different direction. I don't get to SEE God's plan, just to follow my bit in it. Which I'm grateful to do!
Mx
GIdday Kazz
If you back read some posts there is a bit of history between a few who post here at times me included so form your own conclusions based on the similarities, sobriety and life you want to lead.
And trust your intuition and what you see or read and the picture that presents
light and love Zac
If you back read some posts there is a bit of history between a few who post here at times me included so form your own conclusions based on the similarities, sobriety and life you want to lead.
And trust your intuition and what you see or read and the picture that presents
light and love Zac
Hi again and thanks martin. I did sleep well for the first time this week. I need a bit more but will get to my meeting this morning.
Again thanks for the help. I know you have validity because you have done what works. Over and over. Aren't humans dumb- we keep inventing the wheel when there is a perfectly good one right out there?
K
Again thanks for the help. I know you have validity because you have done what works. Over and over. Aren't humans dumb- we keep inventing the wheel when there is a perfectly good one right out there?
K
