I know this may sound like a very stupid question. I know are brains naturaly produce dopamine but dopamine is not the same as an opiate is it? The reason I ask is that I got into a heated conversation today with a friend. My friend was comparing methadone to insulin. I get so sick of hearing that. If you were a diabetic and needed insulin you wouldn't think anything was wrong with that would you? That's what my friend says. Of course my response is no of course not. But a person could die without there insulin and people don't die without there methadone. They might feel like they want to but they don't. So she says are brains naturally produce opiates and here brain has stopped producing them and that's why she needs methadone. So please someone tell me if I'm wrong because I don't think I am.
Shelly
this may help you....................please read....
She's right and she is wrong. The body does naturally produce opioids. However, comparing methadone to insulin is completely wrong. Yes, you can die from not producing/taking insulin, and yes, you will not die (or very unlikely) if you are an opiate addict and refrain from opiates or methadone. You begin insulin because your pancrease has naturally stopped producing insulin. You begin taking methadone because you have beome unnaturally an opium addict and cannot stop, not because your body has stopped producing opiods. Using opiods cause the body to stop producing opiods? Nice try. Don't fly. She is justifying to herself. There is no such thing as 12 step programs for diabetes. If there were, every diabetic would probably be in one so they don't have to inject themselves over and over. And test their blood sugar constantly. Flat out, opiates get you high and people take methadone because they have a problem quitting. Insulin does not get you high and people take it because their bodies are failing, just as it would with a heart attack or brain cancer. What an idiot and it's really insulting to anyone with any kind of digestive disease. Such as me.
A wide-range of opioid agonists (drugs that activate a receptor by binding to it), including opium, heroin, morphine, percodan, and codeine, have addictive properties and are commonly abused. Opioid receptors are distributed throughout the brain and spinal cord and are known to mediate a number of activities including analgesia, species-typical behavior, and reward. Both endogenous opioids, which are naturally produced within the body, and exogenous opiates, which are produced outside the body, produce a variety of symptoms including pain relief, euphoria, respiratory depression (rarely clinically harmful), constipation, nausea, and vomiting. The effects are produced by opioids binding to opioid receptors throughout the body. Pharmacologists and molecular biologists have demonstrated that opioids act at three distinct classes of receptors: kappa, delta, and mu, although it is likely that additional subtypes exist (review in Dhawan et al., 1996). Since each class of receptor has a unique effect on the cell, the multitude of classes allows opioids to have a wide range of effects in the body.
It is, however, important to note that all classes of opioid receptors share key similarities. First, the receptors have a common general structure. Cloning demonstrates that the receptors are usually G protein-linked receptors imbedded in the plasma membrane of neurons (Satoh and Minami, 1995). Once the receptors are bound, a portion of the G protein is activated, which allows it to diffuse within the plasma membrane. The G protein moves within the membrane until it reaches its target, which is either an enzyme or an ion channel. Most often, the targets alter protein phosphorylation and/or gene transcription, which alter the short-term and long-term activity of the neuron, respectively.
A wide-range of opioid agonists (drugs that activate a receptor by binding to it), including opium, heroin, morphine, percodan, and codeine, have addictive properties and are commonly abused. Opioid receptors are distributed throughout the brain and spinal cord and are known to mediate a number of activities including analgesia, species-typical behavior, and reward. Both endogenous opioids, which are naturally produced within the body, and exogenous opiates, which are produced outside the body, produce a variety of symptoms including pain relief, euphoria, respiratory depression (rarely clinically harmful), constipation, nausea, and vomiting. The effects are produced by opioids binding to opioid receptors throughout the body. Pharmacologists and molecular biologists have demonstrated that opioids act at three distinct classes of receptors: kappa, delta, and mu, although it is likely that additional subtypes exist (review in Dhawan et al., 1996). Since each class of receptor has a unique effect on the cell, the multitude of classes allows opioids to have a wide range of effects in the body.
It is, however, important to note that all classes of opioid receptors share key similarities. First, the receptors have a common general structure. Cloning demonstrates that the receptors are usually G protein-linked receptors imbedded in the plasma membrane of neurons (Satoh and Minami, 1995). Once the receptors are bound, a portion of the G protein is activated, which allows it to diffuse within the plasma membrane. The G protein moves within the membrane until it reaches its target, which is either an enzyme or an ion channel. Most often, the targets alter protein phosphorylation and/or gene transcription, which alter the short-term and long-term activity of the neuron, respectively.
excellent danny .....................
Ahhh, boy, addicts can like science. I find that the science, the way it is being used, is often more for rationalization than discovery or revelation.
Yes the body does produce its own opiods, the endorphins and enkalphins. However, their chemical structures don't look anything like the structures of the opiates derived from the opiod poppy. (They are linear molecules, more like methadone).
However, in any case, it is known now that while the exogenous opiods can bind to the same receptors, they do NOT act exactly the same as the endogenous ones. First off, they continue the receptor activation longer than is normal and often activate the different receptors in different proportions than the endogenous ones. Also, the endogenous opiods have both agonist and antagonist properties within the same molecule (only bupernorphine has such properties, but again not exactly the same).
To compare with insulin is specious, period. The modern, cloned, human insulin is IDENTICAL, atom for atom with the endogenous insulin. It acts exactly the same.
Methadone, and suboxone, are harm reduction protcols. That is the long and short of it. Since opiods don't produce obvious, serious, long term body damage (though they cause more than people think), and since due to habituation functionality is not heavily impaired, people may be "maintained" on them. Its a blessing....and a curse.
It is a treatment regemin not available to alcoholics, or cocaine addicts, or meth addicts. And those drugs mess up neurotransmitters as severely, or even more severely, than opiods. Those folks quit.....or die (with varying degrees of speed).
Nope nothing special about opiod addicts. Methadone, or suboxone maintenance is for people who, for whatever reason, can't or won't quit. And I do not understand why people are so uncomfortable with methadone maintenance, but suboxone maintenance is OK. These are both opiod agonists, they both will get opiod naive people high as kites. Both will have withdrawal symptoms.
The only difference is that suboxone is less potent and has antagonist properties as well.
To see some of the problems people are having coming off long-term suboxone maintenance, see ...
Opiate Detox and Recovery
Yes the body does produce its own opiods, the endorphins and enkalphins. However, their chemical structures don't look anything like the structures of the opiates derived from the opiod poppy. (They are linear molecules, more like methadone).
However, in any case, it is known now that while the exogenous opiods can bind to the same receptors, they do NOT act exactly the same as the endogenous ones. First off, they continue the receptor activation longer than is normal and often activate the different receptors in different proportions than the endogenous ones. Also, the endogenous opiods have both agonist and antagonist properties within the same molecule (only bupernorphine has such properties, but again not exactly the same).
To compare with insulin is specious, period. The modern, cloned, human insulin is IDENTICAL, atom for atom with the endogenous insulin. It acts exactly the same.
Methadone, and suboxone, are harm reduction protcols. That is the long and short of it. Since opiods don't produce obvious, serious, long term body damage (though they cause more than people think), and since due to habituation functionality is not heavily impaired, people may be "maintained" on them. Its a blessing....and a curse.
It is a treatment regemin not available to alcoholics, or cocaine addicts, or meth addicts. And those drugs mess up neurotransmitters as severely, or even more severely, than opiods. Those folks quit.....or die (with varying degrees of speed).
Nope nothing special about opiod addicts. Methadone, or suboxone maintenance is for people who, for whatever reason, can't or won't quit. And I do not understand why people are so uncomfortable with methadone maintenance, but suboxone maintenance is OK. These are both opiod agonists, they both will get opiod naive people high as kites. Both will have withdrawal symptoms.
The only difference is that suboxone is less potent and has antagonist properties as well.
To see some of the problems people are having coming off long-term suboxone maintenance, see ...
Opiate Detox and Recovery
Actually Elim...suboxone is a "partial antagonist" and you don't build a tolerance as you do with methadone...and you don't get "high" off of it. It is true that suboxone also have some antidepressant qualities..this I know to be true and I have experienced the benefits myself.
However...sub is a powerful medication and when the time comes to wean down...I will find out. But for now I will not worry about that. I will worry about my recovery. Surely you are not comparing Bupe to Methadone??? Having tried methadone for a very short period of time I can assure you that there is no comparison!
However...sub is a powerful medication and when the time comes to wean down...I will find out. But for now I will not worry about that. I will worry about my recovery. Surely you are not comparing Bupe to Methadone??? Having tried methadone for a very short period of time I can assure you that there is no comparison!
posted by kee kee
Yes, buprenorphine has antagonist qualities. It does build a tolerance, but there is also a "ceiling" effect, at which larger doses do not produce more euphoria, and can actually act more like a pure antagonist like naltrexone. And I am sorry, one can get high off buprenorphine. If one gives bupe to an opiate naive person, they will get high as a kite, trust me. The only reason recovering opiate addicts don't get high off it is due to tolerance.
I work with animals in my research and guess what the painkiller is used down in our animal rooms after surgery? Buprenorphine. For an opiate to be a good painkiller, it will also produce euphoric effects. That is just the bottom line.
For people who are dosed properly on methadone in regards to their tolerance, they also do not get "high".
As I said before, the only difference between the two is methadone is much more potent, and has no antagonistic effects on other opiods. One can use on top of methadone much better than buprenorphine. Which can be a bad thing with bupe, people keep adding more to get past the blocking and overdose can result.
And cold turkey off suboxone maintenance is not fun. You may try that if you wish, I don't recommend it.
And yes, I am comparing bupe with methadone, the principle is exactly the same, it is opiod replacement treatment. Bupe is just a safer regemin that is all.
Why all the stigma for methadone? I don't get it.
| QUOTE |
Actually Elim...suboxone is a "partial antagonist" and you don't build a tolerance as you do with methadone...and you don't get "high" off of it. It is true that suboxone also have some antidepressant qualities..this I know to be true and I have experienced the benefits myself. |
Yes, buprenorphine has antagonist qualities. It does build a tolerance, but there is also a "ceiling" effect, at which larger doses do not produce more euphoria, and can actually act more like a pure antagonist like naltrexone. And I am sorry, one can get high off buprenorphine. If one gives bupe to an opiate naive person, they will get high as a kite, trust me. The only reason recovering opiate addicts don't get high off it is due to tolerance.
I work with animals in my research and guess what the painkiller is used down in our animal rooms after surgery? Buprenorphine. For an opiate to be a good painkiller, it will also produce euphoric effects. That is just the bottom line.
For people who are dosed properly on methadone in regards to their tolerance, they also do not get "high".
As I said before, the only difference between the two is methadone is much more potent, and has no antagonistic effects on other opiods. One can use on top of methadone much better than buprenorphine. Which can be a bad thing with bupe, people keep adding more to get past the blocking and overdose can result.
And cold turkey off suboxone maintenance is not fun. You may try that if you wish, I don't recommend it.
And yes, I am comparing bupe with methadone, the principle is exactly the same, it is opiod replacement treatment. Bupe is just a safer regemin that is all.
Why all the stigma for methadone? I don't get it.
Getting off of sub is more of an art than a science. I find that most people that have a hard time coming off of sub have done something wrong or I should say havent tried something right. Thats mostly the doctors fault for not giving enough guidance.
I know a lot of people have trouble coming off of sub but I know too many people that have gotten off sub relatively easy after an extended period of use, that evidence is hard to ignore. Its the difference between an educated doctor and one that is not in tune with his/her patients.
Ask anybody whose come off of methadone if it was easy.
I know a lot of people have trouble coming off of sub but I know too many people that have gotten off sub relatively easy after an extended period of use, that evidence is hard to ignore. Its the difference between an educated doctor and one that is not in tune with his/her patients.
Ask anybody whose come off of methadone if it was easy.
The "high" I am speaking of is the euphoric high that one gets when they first take narcotics! Just out of curiosity...have you personally taken either of these medications??? I don't believe many doctors that prescribe Suboxone for pain relief..however that may be coming. I know that Jeff takes it for pain...but he is one that is few and far between...so why would someone get rx'd suboxone? For opiate addiction!!!!
I don't know anyone that abuses suboxone...simply put wont' work...ceiling effect...and besides that you don't feel the need to "UP" your dose as you do with methadone...people are continually "upping" there dose on methadone.
I am speaking from up close and personal experience...and its just that, my experience.
edited to say: I don't have the need to jump off my suboxone...I am prescribed it by a very good addiction specialist coupled with a strong program of recovery...so I think I will skip the jumping off!!
I don't know anyone that abuses suboxone...simply put wont' work...ceiling effect...and besides that you don't feel the need to "UP" your dose as you do with methadone...people are continually "upping" there dose on methadone.
I am speaking from up close and personal experience...and its just that, my experience.
edited to say: I don't have the need to jump off my suboxone...I am prescribed it by a very good addiction specialist coupled with a strong program of recovery...so I think I will skip the jumping off!!
| QUOTE |
| coupled with a strong program of recovery |
Correct me if wrong, but that is pretty much a requirement with sub, isn't it and not methadone? The program is probably more beneficial to stopping than the actual sub.
Also, the stigma probably exist because people line up at a meth clinic to get their dose on a daily basis and it's not like that with sub.
Hi Danny...not all Doc's require that you attend meetings or do therapy. In fact I was shocked when people first being induced with Sub were given an rx and told to go home and wait for w/d??? Then start dosing.....my doc will not treat me at all if I don't comply with his program period! He told me that if he asked me to dye my hair purple and spit pink nickles...I had better do it!! Or find another Doc.
Anyway...its been hard but healing..I am one of the lucky ones!!!
Anyway...its been hard but healing..I am one of the lucky ones!!!
Here in Australia, we must go to the pharmacy every day for your dose of sub for the first month. If you are reliable and your doctor is agreeable you may get 2 t/a per week for the second month and so on.
I have been on 2mgs a day since 13th Sept and when I ask my doctor about weaning he asks if I'm comfortable on my dose and ofcourse, I am.
After all I've read on the site Elim posted, I know withdrawl from sub is going to be far from easy. I almost wish I hadn't taken this road as now I have just another monkey on my back.
Sub is a great tool. I just wish I had of looked in someone elses toolbag first
Wendy
I have been on 2mgs a day since 13th Sept and when I ask my doctor about weaning he asks if I'm comfortable on my dose and ofcourse, I am.
After all I've read on the site Elim posted, I know withdrawl from sub is going to be far from easy. I almost wish I hadn't taken this road as now I have just another monkey on my back.
Sub is a great tool. I just wish I had of looked in someone elses toolbag first
Wendy
Wendy,
When you plan to quit sub, your best bet would be to not read about all the bad experiences on message boards everywhere. One person's "agony" may be another person's "not feeling too bad." It subjective. Lost Love stopped in and posted a couple of weeks ago about how she didn't have any WD from long term sub. Reading all the negative just terrifies you and sets you up to feel like crap. No point in reading it, because you have to go through it whether it's easy, or awful or anywhere in between.
I really had my head in the wrong place when I quit. I expected the worst and thought I was getting it. In retrospect, it wasn't that bad and nothing close to an oxy WD. I wish I would have just turned off the computer and went about my life.
When you plan to quit sub, your best bet would be to not read about all the bad experiences on message boards everywhere. One person's "agony" may be another person's "not feeling too bad." It subjective. Lost Love stopped in and posted a couple of weeks ago about how she didn't have any WD from long term sub. Reading all the negative just terrifies you and sets you up to feel like crap. No point in reading it, because you have to go through it whether it's easy, or awful or anywhere in between.
I really had my head in the wrong place when I quit. I expected the worst and thought I was getting it. In retrospect, it wasn't that bad and nothing close to an oxy WD. I wish I would have just turned off the computer and went about my life.
Thanks Atlas,
At last a voice of reason. I shouldn't worry about others stories. Just get on with my own when I'm ready. I feel so balanced right now and the fear of change is my ONLY lol torment at the moment.
Thanks for sharing that with me Atlas.
What was tapering like for you. If you already posted about it I wil look it up.
Wendy
At last a voice of reason. I shouldn't worry about others stories. Just get on with my own when I'm ready. I feel so balanced right now and the fear of change is my ONLY lol torment at the moment.
Thanks for sharing that with me Atlas.
What was tapering like for you. If you already posted about it I wil look it up.
Wendy
great post Atlas................
very wise
very wise
Wendy, theres a lot of people on this board that have got off sub with little problem after extended use. Your best bet is to concentrate on those people and how did they did it rather than the people that have had problems.
Wise words of wisdom Atlas
Wise words of wisdom Atlas
Thanks John,
I know I'm right where I need to be in terms of recovery. Hence the sub. Breathing space from the chaos that was once my life. Now I am feeling clearer, I guess I'm impatient for the next step.
Wendy
I know I'm right where I need to be in terms of recovery. Hence the sub. Breathing space from the chaos that was once my life. Now I am feeling clearer, I guess I'm impatient for the next step.
Wendy
Uhhhh....what is the exact disagreement here? I am merely noting that there seems to be some kind of stigma attached to methadone maintenance that is not to be found with buprenorphine.
No...I have not taken either bupe or methadone. In a bit of disclosure here, I actually have to work with bupe. One of the things I had to do was actually disclose my "problem" to the vets and my concern. They were surprisingly understanding. The upshot of the whole thing is that the bupe injections I give (which are infrequent) are under the supervision of the vet or vet techs, or if neither are available, one of the animal care staff.
But that is not relevant, an opiate addict needn't taken heroin to know that it is a "playa". Bupe is used in vet work because of its lower abuse potential, but also because of its long effective pharmacological half life. Yes it is alot less potent than methadone, but bupe is used for pain management. It is called Temgesic, its given in small doses (even under 1 mg).
And bupe is abused. IV abuse of bupe (also known as Subutex) is a problem in Europe, particularly France. That is the reason, for FDA approval in the USA, naloxone was added to it (hence Suboxone). It is hard in the US for addicts to get Subutex maintenance just because of this issue.
No, bupe won't be the top choice for that "zutch". Neither is codeine either, but it still can cause problems. And yup, I can guarantee that I could inject 2.0 mg bupe into my very non-addicted spouse and have a grinning idiot on my hands.....
No...I have not taken either bupe or methadone. In a bit of disclosure here, I actually have to work with bupe. One of the things I had to do was actually disclose my "problem" to the vets and my concern. They were surprisingly understanding. The upshot of the whole thing is that the bupe injections I give (which are infrequent) are under the supervision of the vet or vet techs, or if neither are available, one of the animal care staff.
But that is not relevant, an opiate addict needn't taken heroin to know that it is a "playa". Bupe is used in vet work because of its lower abuse potential, but also because of its long effective pharmacological half life. Yes it is alot less potent than methadone, but bupe is used for pain management. It is called Temgesic, its given in small doses (even under 1 mg).
And bupe is abused. IV abuse of bupe (also known as Subutex) is a problem in Europe, particularly France. That is the reason, for FDA approval in the USA, naloxone was added to it (hence Suboxone). It is hard in the US for addicts to get Subutex maintenance just because of this issue.
No, bupe won't be the top choice for that "zutch". Neither is codeine either, but it still can cause problems. And yup, I can guarantee that I could inject 2.0 mg bupe into my very non-addicted spouse and have a grinning idiot on my hands.....
Elim-I can corroborate that.
I snorted Temgesic that I bought off the internet.It does get you high....but,back to endorphins.
They are natural painkillers as well as" feel good" chemicals.
In 2003 on a surfing trip to Costa Rica I went out one day and took a nasty wipeout.I remember being hit on the head with my surfboard.I thought"no big deal,Im still concious"
When I was through, I was walking up the beach and my friend was looking at me horrified.I then realized I was covered in blood.I had a deep cut all the way down my head.I wasn't near a hospital so we poured alcohol on it and I covered duct tape.
The moral of the story.......I was so stoked to be surfing and was having such a good time,I couldn't feel any pain.
That night I felt pain.
I snorted Temgesic that I bought off the internet.It does get you high....but,back to endorphins.
They are natural painkillers as well as" feel good" chemicals.
In 2003 on a surfing trip to Costa Rica I went out one day and took a nasty wipeout.I remember being hit on the head with my surfboard.I thought"no big deal,Im still concious"
When I was through, I was walking up the beach and my friend was looking at me horrified.I then realized I was covered in blood.I had a deep cut all the way down my head.I wasn't near a hospital so we poured alcohol on it and I covered duct tape.
The moral of the story.......I was so stoked to be surfing and was having such a good time,I couldn't feel any pain.
That night I felt pain.
Tim
You ordered a Schedule II drug off the Internet??? That must of cost a clam or two.....
You ordered a Schedule II drug off the Internet??? That must of cost a clam or two.....
