Hi guys. Was talking to my sponsor and to others on the 4th step. I am having so much trouble with it and I wonder if any of you guys felt the same way as I am feeling now. My sponsor tells me that in order to do the 4th step I have to take inventory of myself. Maybe I am scared to I don't know but to me I don't see why I have to write it down. I already know what my flaws are and I just as soon forget about them and concentrate on improving them. I don't see how writing things down are going to help me. I think it would just depress me and when I get feeling bad I want to drink. He says I don't have to show it to anyone it can be just for me and then I could get rid of it. So what's the point of it? What would it accomplish? I am having so many mixed feelings about it all. I find that talking to my sponsor and this board help me tremendously and it's working for me so why interfere with a good thing. I haven't had a drink in 6 weeks now and that is the longest time I have ever went for years and years.So obviously something is working for me. I believe in God and even though I had trouble admitting I was an alcoholic on the first step the second one came easy to me. But I seem to be stuck on the 3rd one and I rather stay there for reasons I don't know.Did any of you guys feel this way or did you just breeze on through? If I have to take "inventory" of myself does that mean writing down EVERYTHING I have done wrong? I know I have to write the good down as well I guess but right now I feel like the wrongs outweigh the rights. To bring it all to the surface would only cause turmoil in my head. I feel like I have been doing good and I don't want to have to bring up old things from the past,not even to me. And even if I did step 4 nothing will change., It's still gonna be there only I will be writing and reading about it.Anyway that is the way I am feeling today. Instead of being happy for having 6 sober weeks I feel confused and not sure if I can do all the steps that is required to do the program. Thanks for taking the time to read this and for letting me ramble on. I just need some input on the way you guys dealt with step 4. God bless and be safe all.
Writing stuff down is comittment to the program, doing what you're told, and taking OWNERSHIP of the stuff. It's the ONLY time in the program where you get to take someone else's inventory, too. Then you can take your 5th Step:
If that isn't enough of a reason, then just do it because your sponsor said so...
:)
| QUOTE |
| Once we have taken this step, witholding nothing, we are delighted. We can look the world in the eye. We can be alone at perfect peace and ease. Our fears fall from us. We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator. We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience. The feeling that the drink problem as disappeared will often come strongly. We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe. |
If that isn't enough of a reason, then just do it because your sponsor said so...
:)
The fourth step slows down many alcoholics. Here's what my sponsor had me do...
First I made a list of resentments. People, places and situations that I was angry about. Then I wrote why I was angry. Then I wrote what my part in it was, was I self centered, selfish, dishonest, self seeking, etc.
I did the same with fears, harms done others and sexual harms. After each I wrote what character defect in myself could have caused or was causing each.
There are sites online that have lists of defects and assets for the 4th step. Don't forget for each defect there is an asset.
It's not that hard really. Ask your HP for help and give it a go. There is a reason for it. When we see our defects down on paper it is harder to ignore them. When we see what we've been doing wrong all our drinking years its easier to learn to change our old habits.
There are reasons for the steps, each and every one of them even though we can't always see them in early recovery. Honest.
If you google AA 4th step or something to that effect you will find work sheets and all kinds of information.
Congratulaions on 6 weeks sober. That's awesome!
First I made a list of resentments. People, places and situations that I was angry about. Then I wrote why I was angry. Then I wrote what my part in it was, was I self centered, selfish, dishonest, self seeking, etc.
I did the same with fears, harms done others and sexual harms. After each I wrote what character defect in myself could have caused or was causing each.
There are sites online that have lists of defects and assets for the 4th step. Don't forget for each defect there is an asset.
It's not that hard really. Ask your HP for help and give it a go. There is a reason for it. When we see our defects down on paper it is harder to ignore them. When we see what we've been doing wrong all our drinking years its easier to learn to change our old habits.
There are reasons for the steps, each and every one of them even though we can't always see them in early recovery. Honest.
If you google AA 4th step or something to that effect you will find work sheets and all kinds of information.
Congratulaions on 6 weeks sober. That's awesome!
In MY 4th Step, I took it in two steps.
1) Made a list of what the resentment was, whodunit, and how it affected my
(Esteem, Relationships, Sexuality, Ambitions, or Security). After the list was as done as WE figured it was going to get, I went back and took stock of MY part in each of the events. Was I dishonest? Was I selfish? Was I Self Seeking? Was I in fear?
My sponsor helped me get through it, documenting everything. THEN I was ready to go over each item, and then BURN THE PUPPY after I'd done the 5th Step. Ceremoniously, too!
:)
1) Made a list of what the resentment was, whodunit, and how it affected my
(Esteem, Relationships, Sexuality, Ambitions, or Security). After the list was as done as WE figured it was going to get, I went back and took stock of MY part in each of the events. Was I dishonest? Was I selfish? Was I Self Seeking? Was I in fear?
My sponsor helped me get through it, documenting everything. THEN I was ready to go over each item, and then BURN THE PUPPY after I'd done the 5th Step. Ceremoniously, too!
:)
pirate, I'm not an alcoholic, but having sat in on open AA meetings for a year now I get a lot of identification and I'll own a lot of the isms....the truth is I think that disease has been lurking in the shadows around me for years.
While I'm not an alcoholic, I recognise how my own personality has been shaped by events and my responses to life. The psychological defences, traits and, if you prefer, "character defects" that result have damaged people I love and me.
All my life I've bottled up my emotions, sucked upt he pain and toughed it out. I've fixed other people's problems even if they didn't know they had 'em....I used people, places and things - I used life - to avoid the problem of living.....much as some/all? alcoholics use alcohol....
Opening up about all of that here, in Al-anon, to some of my new friends in AA and to my counsellor, phoning the Samaritans when necessary AND writing tons of stuff down in a journal "externalises" it and helps us see things we didn't know were there.
In truth, what the process does is allow your conscious ego to open up to what your Unconscious mind has been trying to tell it for decades but which you have been drowning out with alcohol or work or sex or rock and roll or anything that keeps you so diverted from your feelings that your beautiful, wise, sometimes troubled and troublesome Unconscious mind cannot communicate with "you".
It is a revelation to realise that who we are is so much bigger, smarter and wiser - and more spiritual - than our intellect, our prideful, conscious, ego.
Let go and let God.....work through your wonderful human organism.
Confession is good for the soul.
While I'm not an alcoholic, I recognise how my own personality has been shaped by events and my responses to life. The psychological defences, traits and, if you prefer, "character defects" that result have damaged people I love and me.
All my life I've bottled up my emotions, sucked upt he pain and toughed it out. I've fixed other people's problems even if they didn't know they had 'em....I used people, places and things - I used life - to avoid the problem of living.....much as some/all? alcoholics use alcohol....
Opening up about all of that here, in Al-anon, to some of my new friends in AA and to my counsellor, phoning the Samaritans when necessary AND writing tons of stuff down in a journal "externalises" it and helps us see things we didn't know were there.
In truth, what the process does is allow your conscious ego to open up to what your Unconscious mind has been trying to tell it for decades but which you have been drowning out with alcohol or work or sex or rock and roll or anything that keeps you so diverted from your feelings that your beautiful, wise, sometimes troubled and troublesome Unconscious mind cannot communicate with "you".
It is a revelation to realise that who we are is so much bigger, smarter and wiser - and more spiritual - than our intellect, our prideful, conscious, ego.
Let go and let God.....work through your wonderful human organism.
Confession is good for the soul.
Pirate I think you need to slow down and talk to your sponsor about this.
The fact that you are resisting so strongly indicates there are a lot of issues here you need to address.
You say you writing this stuff down will make you feel bad and then you make drink - in another post you said you are just avoiding feeling bad and angry.
You are at a breakthrough point in your recovery I think.
You have pushed through the fear of putting the bottle down, now you have to push through the emotional fear of confronting who you are.
That said, there is no need to bolt through the steps as if you were doing the Grand National. Talk to your sponsor, you may need a few days, or even weeks to be ready to work on this step. I'm not saying procrastinate - but you might be well advised to discuss this some more with your sponsor and yoru counsellor.
Why are you so afraid of doing this step?
Idgie
The fact that you are resisting so strongly indicates there are a lot of issues here you need to address.
You say you writing this stuff down will make you feel bad and then you make drink - in another post you said you are just avoiding feeling bad and angry.
You are at a breakthrough point in your recovery I think.
You have pushed through the fear of putting the bottle down, now you have to push through the emotional fear of confronting who you are.
That said, there is no need to bolt through the steps as if you were doing the Grand National. Talk to your sponsor, you may need a few days, or even weeks to be ready to work on this step. I'm not saying procrastinate - but you might be well advised to discuss this some more with your sponsor and yoru counsellor.
Why are you so afraid of doing this step?
Idgie
Good post Idgie.
We are where we're meant to be, pirate, and if your Unconscious is uneasy at taking this step today perhaps you should be be guided by it.....sit with your feelings and if the decision to wait feels measured, wise and right.....then wait.....if you feel anxious, gently ask yourself, your wise, inner self, what that might be about.......Trust yourself.....my feeling is that that is what recovery IS...learning to stop USING THINGS and learning instead to TRUST that which at some point we lost trust in - our SELVES.....learning to listen to the quiet inner voice that has so patiently been trying to help us....
but that's just my feeling about it all...
We are where we're meant to be, pirate, and if your Unconscious is uneasy at taking this step today perhaps you should be be guided by it.....sit with your feelings and if the decision to wait feels measured, wise and right.....then wait.....if you feel anxious, gently ask yourself, your wise, inner self, what that might be about.......Trust yourself.....my feeling is that that is what recovery IS...learning to stop USING THINGS and learning instead to TRUST that which at some point we lost trust in - our SELVES.....learning to listen to the quiet inner voice that has so patiently been trying to help us....
but that's just my feeling about it all...
:and if your Unconscious is uneasy at taking this step
If your unconsciousness is telling you what to do, then you've got even bigger problems. Listen to your sponsor. You asked him for help. so let him help. If you aren't ready, there's always more research.
"Go to any lengths..."
If your unconsciousness is telling you what to do, then you've got even bigger problems. Listen to your sponsor. You asked him for help. so let him help. If you aren't ready, there's always more research.
"Go to any lengths..."
skq,
I don't think it would be helpful to debate too much on here, but isn't recovery about getting back in touch with who we "really are", with feelings and values and honesty and principles we misplaced somewhere?
Where do you think people misplaced them? Where do you think all those difficult feelings go when alcohol or co-dependency kicks in? Ohio?
Fear of our healthy, Unconscious mind is half the enemy in addiction....trying to deal with unconscious fears and guilts by drinking rather than dealing with what has been repressed is half the problem....and then trying to STOP drinking by ONLY using the conscious self is perhaps the other half........
I know a lot of people believe God is their HP....that's fine. It's also useful to remember that our conscious mind is a tiny part, a miniscule part of who we really are....some people believe the 12 steps work because people experience Divine intervention...that's fine.....and the steps are also entirely consistent with a theraputic process that enables us to heal by getting us back in touch in a safe way with powerful forces in our Unconscious mind that can help us reconcile with feelings and aspects of ourselves that we have repressed and that do us damage BECAUSE we have repressed them. Recovery is about allowing these aspects of ourselves and our emotions to find a voice ONCE the healthy aspects of our Unconscious have been called to arms - perhaps by steps 1, 2 and 3.....Step 4 brings stuff out of the Shadow and into the Light. Then we're dealing with it.
Personally, I think it's impossible to know whether someone is ready to deal with that sort of stuff or not unless you're in the room with them and are a trained therapist....which most sponsors are not. The 12 step process works for a lot of people. Some sponsors are better than others. Some alcoholics are more in touch with where they're at than others. I have no idea what's best for pirate, but I hear a voice that I feel might want to be honoured. My feeling would be to listen for a quiet, calm inner voice....listen for the Truth. We know it when we hear it. Even when we tell ourselves we don't....
What's to lose? How can it hurt to have another month of sobriety first?
It's just another perspective....take what you like and leave the rest.....
I don't think it would be helpful to debate too much on here, but isn't recovery about getting back in touch with who we "really are", with feelings and values and honesty and principles we misplaced somewhere?
Where do you think people misplaced them? Where do you think all those difficult feelings go when alcohol or co-dependency kicks in? Ohio?
Fear of our healthy, Unconscious mind is half the enemy in addiction....trying to deal with unconscious fears and guilts by drinking rather than dealing with what has been repressed is half the problem....and then trying to STOP drinking by ONLY using the conscious self is perhaps the other half........
I know a lot of people believe God is their HP....that's fine. It's also useful to remember that our conscious mind is a tiny part, a miniscule part of who we really are....some people believe the 12 steps work because people experience Divine intervention...that's fine.....and the steps are also entirely consistent with a theraputic process that enables us to heal by getting us back in touch in a safe way with powerful forces in our Unconscious mind that can help us reconcile with feelings and aspects of ourselves that we have repressed and that do us damage BECAUSE we have repressed them. Recovery is about allowing these aspects of ourselves and our emotions to find a voice ONCE the healthy aspects of our Unconscious have been called to arms - perhaps by steps 1, 2 and 3.....Step 4 brings stuff out of the Shadow and into the Light. Then we're dealing with it.
Personally, I think it's impossible to know whether someone is ready to deal with that sort of stuff or not unless you're in the room with them and are a trained therapist....which most sponsors are not. The 12 step process works for a lot of people. Some sponsors are better than others. Some alcoholics are more in touch with where they're at than others. I have no idea what's best for pirate, but I hear a voice that I feel might want to be honoured. My feeling would be to listen for a quiet, calm inner voice....listen for the Truth. We know it when we hear it. Even when we tell ourselves we don't....
What's to lose? How can it hurt to have another month of sobriety first?
It's just another perspective....take what you like and leave the rest.....
Who I really was was someone that felt the need to hide from my feelings and emotions and get drunk or high. Working the steps showed me who I could be, the person God meant for me to be before self will made me a selfish, self centered jerk. If I followed what I thought my subconcious thought I should do I'd probably still be on Steps 1, 2, 3. We don't wait until we're "comfortable" looking at what we've done. Heck, that never would have happened if I did it my way. I don't know about anyone else but I had to learn to listen to what my sponsor thought because the way I thought was a little off. Left to my own thinking I would have run and hid and not faced anything about myself. Thank God for sponsorship. My sponsor and the Big Book taught me what other alcoholics did to stay sober. It works. Really. Doing it my way just got me drunk again.
Sorry 12 stepper, don't agree.
Did your sponsor tie you up?
Did someone drag you into AA?
Did someone persuade you to get sober?
Nope....YOU did that. No-one else, my friend. Don't be afraid to take credit for what you KNOW to be true. You all say it in AA - you have to want to be sober before the programme can help you.
BEFORE the programme can help you. You take the 1st step before you know what the first step is. Who does that? Who was THAT person then? That was the REAL you....drowning in alcohol but not yet dead and determined to live. That person, the REAL you, might have been lost decades before, but he was in there and determined to get back to you. All credit to you.
What had HAPPENED was that the thinking you had lost touch with the REAL you....who brought you into AA and worked his butt off through the 12 steps to make sure he got back in the driving seat.
We human beings are wonderfully strange creatures....
Did your sponsor tie you up?
Did someone drag you into AA?
Did someone persuade you to get sober?
Nope....YOU did that. No-one else, my friend. Don't be afraid to take credit for what you KNOW to be true. You all say it in AA - you have to want to be sober before the programme can help you.
BEFORE the programme can help you. You take the 1st step before you know what the first step is. Who does that? Who was THAT person then? That was the REAL you....drowning in alcohol but not yet dead and determined to live. That person, the REAL you, might have been lost decades before, but he was in there and determined to get back to you. All credit to you.
What had HAPPENED was that the thinking you had lost touch with the REAL you....who brought you into AA and worked his butt off through the 12 steps to make sure he got back in the driving seat.
We human beings are wonderfully strange creatures....
Pirate,
You are only six wks. into your sobriety, you do not have to rush this step. I 've meant many in AA who didn't do this step for six months and longer. If it's going to effect your sobriety, which you need to put first that means your not ready.
Give yourself some time. Your still a baby in your sobriety. They also say at AA Put your sobriety before anything else. Tell your sponser your not ready, just be honest. I tried doing this step to early 31/2 yrs ago and had bad consequences. There were things that I had buried/suppressed so deep that I hadn't remembered. I wasn't ready. I hadn't known my sponser long enough either to build a trusting relationship to share such private info. I'm not saying this is your case.
Martin in my opinion is right on spot here! Alcohol for many yrs. was my voice, as when my unconcious and myself became sober I had memories of childhood traumas and some adult ones too that I couldn't deal with alone. I needed a counselor. I found a good one after my 4th try, and many yrs. in between.
Please talk to your family and pray about it. You will know the truth and what to do next.
Martin even though we don't believe in the same God. If I ever have a problem I would want you on my team. Your post to MJer was right on spot to. If I didn't know better I would think your in the professional health care business.
You are only six wks. into your sobriety, you do not have to rush this step. I 've meant many in AA who didn't do this step for six months and longer. If it's going to effect your sobriety, which you need to put first that means your not ready.
Give yourself some time. Your still a baby in your sobriety. They also say at AA Put your sobriety before anything else. Tell your sponser your not ready, just be honest. I tried doing this step to early 31/2 yrs ago and had bad consequences. There were things that I had buried/suppressed so deep that I hadn't remembered. I wasn't ready. I hadn't known my sponser long enough either to build a trusting relationship to share such private info. I'm not saying this is your case.
Martin in my opinion is right on spot here! Alcohol for many yrs. was my voice, as when my unconcious and myself became sober I had memories of childhood traumas and some adult ones too that I couldn't deal with alone. I needed a counselor. I found a good one after my 4th try, and many yrs. in between.
Please talk to your family and pray about it. You will know the truth and what to do next.
Martin even though we don't believe in the same God. If I ever have a problem I would want you on my team. Your post to MJer was right on spot to. If I didn't know better I would think your in the professional health care business.
Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply to my post. I will think about what you all said. If I will ever be ready to do this step or not. to be honest I am not sure. I will take into consideration what was said in EVERY post because you all had good advice. I just don't think right now I am ready for it. It's almost like the times when other people wanted me to give up drinking. I wasn't ready to at the times they wanted but this time I was ready to for myself and I think I feel almost the same way about the 4th step. I don't want to feel like this because I want to go through the steps and complete the program but I don't know if that is the right way for me. Even if I do the 4th step and complete it then there is step 5 coming up. God knows my shortcomings ,he knows my flaws,my sins,my resentments,my EVERYTHING so why is it necessary for me to have to tell someone else. Can't I find the peace and contentment with just God and me? I don't mean to seem difficult I am just trying to be honest about my feelings and to work through them.Once again thank you all and I will give your advice a lot of thought. God bless and be safe
Hey pirate,
I acknowledge that your last post felt like you want closure on the subject so forgive me if I'm pushing here, but I don't want you to get the impression that I think the 4th step is not necessary. I believe it is. I believe that you will gain enlightenment about who you are, who you want to be, and how much you want it. I believe you will feel a burden lift that has been dragging you down for years. I believe being honest with ourselves as best we can is a necessary step and saying it out loud is VERY different from vaguely waving at it from a safe distance. We need to OWN who we have been and why before we can reconnect with our real selves and begin to grow again, become who we're really destined to be...
For me, it's a matter of getting the timing right, and the reason it works is that steps 1,2 and 3 are FIRMLY in place.
If you have FAITH, you can't have FEAR......they cannot occupy the same space, the same time, the same, heart mind or soul. Look to your Faith...in your HP, God, your Unconscious, the process.....maybe that's where the work needs to be done first.
You deserve to get this right. You truly do.
Lookinup - thank you. btw, actually I'm not really sure WHO my God is, or isn't. The nice thing is He really doesn't seem to mind...
I acknowledge that your last post felt like you want closure on the subject so forgive me if I'm pushing here, but I don't want you to get the impression that I think the 4th step is not necessary. I believe it is. I believe that you will gain enlightenment about who you are, who you want to be, and how much you want it. I believe you will feel a burden lift that has been dragging you down for years. I believe being honest with ourselves as best we can is a necessary step and saying it out loud is VERY different from vaguely waving at it from a safe distance. We need to OWN who we have been and why before we can reconnect with our real selves and begin to grow again, become who we're really destined to be...
For me, it's a matter of getting the timing right, and the reason it works is that steps 1,2 and 3 are FIRMLY in place.
If you have FAITH, you can't have FEAR......they cannot occupy the same space, the same time, the same, heart mind or soul. Look to your Faith...in your HP, God, your Unconscious, the process.....maybe that's where the work needs to be done first.
You deserve to get this right. You truly do.
Lookinup - thank you. btw, actually I'm not really sure WHO my God is, or isn't. The nice thing is He really doesn't seem to mind...
Martin
I don't know what brought me to the rooms. I don't know why I am not dead or still drinking but I sincerely believe it was God's grace and that I had very little to do with it. No, my sponsor didn't force me to do anything. I became willing through working the first 3 steps to work on my 4th and 5th. It's not the big deal that newcomers make it out to be. It's a simple thing. You look at what you did and look at why things were your fault. It's not some cosmic psychobabble. It's a very simple step.
pirate
The reason we tell another human being our defects is that we tend to sugarcoat our defects. We like to say "oh I wasn't that bad I don't have to change that" or "well I didn't do what they did so I'm ok." But you aren't on the 5th step you are only on your 4th so don't worry about 5. In the third step it says we made a DECISION to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. That decision is to continue with the rest of the steps. That's all. We decide to let God help us get better so we continue on with the action steps. It must be confusing to you because you don't have meetings to go to to listen to other alkies to hear what the steps have done for them. All I can tell you is pray for the willingness or pray for the willingness to be willing. You are doing fine. Don't worry yourself into stopping on the third step. Just take it one day at a time.
I don't know what brought me to the rooms. I don't know why I am not dead or still drinking but I sincerely believe it was God's grace and that I had very little to do with it. No, my sponsor didn't force me to do anything. I became willing through working the first 3 steps to work on my 4th and 5th. It's not the big deal that newcomers make it out to be. It's a simple thing. You look at what you did and look at why things were your fault. It's not some cosmic psychobabble. It's a very simple step.
pirate
The reason we tell another human being our defects is that we tend to sugarcoat our defects. We like to say "oh I wasn't that bad I don't have to change that" or "well I didn't do what they did so I'm ok." But you aren't on the 5th step you are only on your 4th so don't worry about 5. In the third step it says we made a DECISION to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. That decision is to continue with the rest of the steps. That's all. We decide to let God help us get better so we continue on with the action steps. It must be confusing to you because you don't have meetings to go to to listen to other alkies to hear what the steps have done for them. All I can tell you is pray for the willingness or pray for the willingness to be willing. You are doing fine. Don't worry yourself into stopping on the third step. Just take it one day at a time.
Pirate,
You are doing what is best for you and don't let anyone tell you different. I support your decision it's just between you and God. I did part of one in my church group there are some things that are just between God and me, period.
My sins, my shame, my guilt , my pain. my resentments, my anger, my fears it's all forgiven thru Christ Jesus. Not thru Man made rules. My family and friends have forgiven me. I have forgiven me. I feel blessed. Do I still have flaws, short comings of course I do. Do I dwell on past sins no. I have no need to keep digging into my past. It's all forgiven. God does not keep records. I do at times take an inventory of myself and make amends when needed. My mother also taught me this.
Because I'm not perfect and I never will be. It's to bad all people don't do the step or know of the power of God's love and forgiveness. The world would be a better place. I chuck the seed and then it's God's job, not mine anymore. Remember down the road you can always change your mind if you want and do the 4th step or not.
You are a different person without the alcohol. You shine here on the board. You just don't have the confidence yet, it's growing. Do you realize you inspire me. You make me smile. I can tell that you are a kind hearted person. I appreciate you Pirate and your honesty!!!
God Bless You
You are doing what is best for you and don't let anyone tell you different. I support your decision it's just between you and God. I did part of one in my church group there are some things that are just between God and me, period.
My sins, my shame, my guilt , my pain. my resentments, my anger, my fears it's all forgiven thru Christ Jesus. Not thru Man made rules. My family and friends have forgiven me. I have forgiven me. I feel blessed. Do I still have flaws, short comings of course I do. Do I dwell on past sins no. I have no need to keep digging into my past. It's all forgiven. God does not keep records. I do at times take an inventory of myself and make amends when needed. My mother also taught me this.
Because I'm not perfect and I never will be. It's to bad all people don't do the step or know of the power of God's love and forgiveness. The world would be a better place. I chuck the seed and then it's God's job, not mine anymore. Remember down the road you can always change your mind if you want and do the 4th step or not.
You are a different person without the alcohol. You shine here on the board. You just don't have the confidence yet, it's growing. Do you realize you inspire me. You make me smile. I can tell that you are a kind hearted person. I appreciate you Pirate and your honesty!!!
God Bless You
12 stepper, I certainly hope I didn't give the impression that I think the steps are cosmic psychobabble. I think they're a very useful framework for helping some people recover from alcoholism.
In fact I think we're both saying the same thing....you say that AFTER working THROUGH steps 1, 2 and 3, step 4 was not a major threat. I agree that the steps are in that order for a reason. Steps 1,2 and 3 create a psychologically and emotionally safe context for someone to take a really good look at themselves - something which, again, they're only going to feel able to do properly in a relationship with someone who makes them feel safe and secure and valued. There is only one person who knows how safe, secure and valued they feel at the moment....if steps 1,2 and 3 aren't rock solid, would you feel someone is gonig to complete a really honest , fearless and searching moral inventory of themselves? And if the relationship with the sponser isn't solid enough in the right ways?
There's no magic to the wonderful process. There's magic in the wonderful people.
In fact I think we're both saying the same thing....you say that AFTER working THROUGH steps 1, 2 and 3, step 4 was not a major threat. I agree that the steps are in that order for a reason. Steps 1,2 and 3 create a psychologically and emotionally safe context for someone to take a really good look at themselves - something which, again, they're only going to feel able to do properly in a relationship with someone who makes them feel safe and secure and valued. There is only one person who knows how safe, secure and valued they feel at the moment....if steps 1,2 and 3 aren't rock solid, would you feel someone is gonig to complete a really honest , fearless and searching moral inventory of themselves? And if the relationship with the sponser isn't solid enough in the right ways?
There's no magic to the wonderful process. There's magic in the wonderful people.
Martin.
Until one has been in the shoes of an alcoholic, one can only presume what motivates. Someone in AA once told me, "What part of AA should we change just for YOU?" The success of The Program of AA speaks for itself. Pirate is free to do as she wishes and that includes listening to people who've gone before her in The Program.
Until one has been in the shoes of an alcoholic, one can only presume what motivates. Someone in AA once told me, "What part of AA should we change just for YOU?" The success of The Program of AA speaks for itself. Pirate is free to do as she wishes and that includes listening to people who've gone before her in The Program.
skq, until one has actually lived in the skin of someone else, one can only presume what motivates.....no?
As for the success of AA, no-one really knows. It works for many. Many leave. Some of those become sober on their own. Others don't. Many become sober without ever stepping through the doors. No-one knows. It is enough that it works for you. It is wonderful. And I don't think I've actually said anything about AA in general anyway, simply that if a person doesn't feel ready to conduct a searching and moral inventory then it might be good for them to honour that feeling, sit with it a while and explore it. As I asked before, what harm does another month of sobriety do before taking step 4? It's not a competition. Certainly I think ANY of the old-timers I know would feel being grounded in steps 1,2 and 3 is a PRE-REQUISITE for doing step 4.....and as I've suggested, there's sound psychology behind that as well as time-honoured tradition, bad experiences and success in AA. On top of which, many recovering alcoholics I listen to talk about the rubbish version they did when they first entered the rooms and it was only after a few years that they REALLY understood what it was about. So what harm a month's wait and see? Not dodging it, not faking it, not cheating it, just doing it with faith in oneself, God, the process, one's sponsor and in a Good Orderly Direction......
Anyway,
There's only one person here who is responsible for making decisions about pirate's safety and well-being, so far as I am aware. The rest of us are just offering our humble opinions from our unique and singular position as wonderful, flawed human beings, are we not? I certainly do not claim there is only one path to sobriety or Heaven, nor that I know it. Each person finds their own way through life.
As for the success of AA, no-one really knows. It works for many. Many leave. Some of those become sober on their own. Others don't. Many become sober without ever stepping through the doors. No-one knows. It is enough that it works for you. It is wonderful. And I don't think I've actually said anything about AA in general anyway, simply that if a person doesn't feel ready to conduct a searching and moral inventory then it might be good for them to honour that feeling, sit with it a while and explore it. As I asked before, what harm does another month of sobriety do before taking step 4? It's not a competition. Certainly I think ANY of the old-timers I know would feel being grounded in steps 1,2 and 3 is a PRE-REQUISITE for doing step 4.....and as I've suggested, there's sound psychology behind that as well as time-honoured tradition, bad experiences and success in AA. On top of which, many recovering alcoholics I listen to talk about the rubbish version they did when they first entered the rooms and it was only after a few years that they REALLY understood what it was about. So what harm a month's wait and see? Not dodging it, not faking it, not cheating it, just doing it with faith in oneself, God, the process, one's sponsor and in a Good Orderly Direction......
Anyway,
There's only one person here who is responsible for making decisions about pirate's safety and well-being, so far as I am aware. The rest of us are just offering our humble opinions from our unique and singular position as wonderful, flawed human beings, are we not? I certainly do not claim there is only one path to sobriety or Heaven, nor that I know it. Each person finds their own way through life.
An AlAnon arguing with an alcoholic? How could this be?
~Laughing my A$$ off!~
~Laughing my A$$ off!~
