oxy.
most of what you said I agree with ie... coming together... everyone has there own vices...ect.... but.... addiction is a disease and can be proven on PET scans and FMRI scans of cocaine addicts.. it can be predicted by the way a person respons to doses of opiates and how the body reacts to those particular compond... the notion of addiction being a ploy to draw us out.. isnt a ploy .. addiciton is a disease .. it is a disease of chemisty intertwined with phychology... the why and how for many are yet unaswered but that doesnt make it any less of a disease just the same as the diabetic doesnt know why he has a disease .... but it is a disease nonetheless... the only thing is what we do with that information separates us from the doers and the cop outs....
teresa
Wow Oxyroxybobannadanna (had to cut and paste that, like I'd remember that name - haha)..........thank you for your insight. Very much appreciated. So much to thinkl about from you all, and I am so grateful. Awesome.
And Teresa, your medical explanation, stuff like that is so awesome as well.......and never realized there is such an 'explanation' for things such as addiction. Wow, nice to know. What kind of background do you have anyways??? Either it's your background, or you've done tons of reserach and reading. Either way, the info you provided is awesome.
I've been like a sponge lately, trying to soak up as much as I can.
Awesome everyone
And Teresa, your medical explanation, stuff like that is so awesome as well.......and never realized there is such an 'explanation' for things such as addiction. Wow, nice to know. What kind of background do you have anyways??? Either it's your background, or you've done tons of reserach and reading. Either way, the info you provided is awesome.
I've been like a sponge lately, trying to soak up as much as I can.
Awesome everyone
Dear Theresa,
I stand corrected and, I, actually, did know that, as my wife is a member of the medical profession. I really wasn't trying to discount those facts, either. I guess the word "ploy" was not the best choice of word. However, I do think that the med. comm. called it a disease before they had concrete evidence of that. I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative and I don't want to come across as a know-it-all (Is it too late for that?) It just kind of sounds to me like Chris may be (and I could be wrong) having a problem with the hypocrisy of the attitude towards our disease. Which I also believe is a strong root feeling that drives all of our aching hearts to defect from sobriety in the first place. But hey! It's all good---Peace to all my fellow (and fellee?) searchers. Don't take what I say too seriously--I don't. :)
I stand corrected and, I, actually, did know that, as my wife is a member of the medical profession. I really wasn't trying to discount those facts, either. I guess the word "ploy" was not the best choice of word. However, I do think that the med. comm. called it a disease before they had concrete evidence of that. I'm not trying to be difficult or argumentative and I don't want to come across as a know-it-all (Is it too late for that?) It just kind of sounds to me like Chris may be (and I could be wrong) having a problem with the hypocrisy of the attitude towards our disease. Which I also believe is a strong root feeling that drives all of our aching hearts to defect from sobriety in the first place. But hey! It's all good---Peace to all my fellow (and fellee?) searchers. Don't take what I say too seriously--I don't. :)
What I have always wondered was: If a person who did not have "the disease" of addiction was taking a strong opiate for pain over a long period of time, would that person get the disease of addiction? or would it just be classified as a chemical dependance? and what is the difference?
Regards,
Tom
Regards,
Tom
oxy..
no no... I didnt think you sounded augumentative or a know-it- all at all..lol... I just thought that you really thought that it wasnt a disease and a rouse to get us to come out of the closet so to speak and I only wished to speak to that fallousy... tha is all.... I know that at the time they were call addiction .. or more to the point alcololism I believe a disease they were quite sure it fit into the medical model of a disease just yet it was in fact a hypothosis at that time but as the facts would later reveal in spades addiction was infact a disease so to say that you are right... that was all I am saying......
I never want the public to continue to think that this isnt a true disease and I certainly dont want us as addict ever want each other thinking that this isnt a disease.. is we cant educate each other or our families about this disease and our responsiblity to change perception how in the world is the perception have a hope in hell of changing..?
but no I didnt think that you were a know it all... or auguementative.... sorry if you thought that....
teresa....
Chris..
I was a nurse and I have been clean for a number of years.. I was in rehab was well educated there and I am passionate about my recovery and educating others to make the future a little easier for those unfortuates that will come after me.... that is my new mission... sound corny but...
no no... I didnt think you sounded augumentative or a know-it- all at all..lol... I just thought that you really thought that it wasnt a disease and a rouse to get us to come out of the closet so to speak and I only wished to speak to that fallousy... tha is all.... I know that at the time they were call addiction .. or more to the point alcololism I believe a disease they were quite sure it fit into the medical model of a disease just yet it was in fact a hypothosis at that time but as the facts would later reveal in spades addiction was infact a disease so to say that you are right... that was all I am saying......
I never want the public to continue to think that this isnt a true disease and I certainly dont want us as addict ever want each other thinking that this isnt a disease.. is we cant educate each other or our families about this disease and our responsiblity to change perception how in the world is the perception have a hope in hell of changing..?
but no I didnt think that you were a know it all... or auguementative.... sorry if you thought that....
teresa....
Chris..
I was a nurse and I have been clean for a number of years.. I was in rehab was well educated there and I am passionate about my recovery and educating others to make the future a little easier for those unfortuates that will come after me.... that is my new mission... sound corny but...
Wow Tom, now that's something to think about? I wonder. Is there any "scientific" or medical explanation for something like that?? Wow, that's pretty deep......gonna be thinking about that for quite some time.
And Oxy......I don't really have an answer to what I am searching for in regards to the whole 'disease' bit. Don't know if it's the hypocrisy, or just wanting to get a better grip on it. I know one thing though, I want and love hearing what you folk all think about it though. It helps me look at it in a different way, othern than my own. I just know that people look at someone with the disease of cancer and heckuva lot different than that disease of addiction. Like if I told my family or friends that, they'd probably scoff or laugh. But I will print this off for future reference and it's a good read for people that have a tough time understanding.
And Oxy......I don't really have an answer to what I am searching for in regards to the whole 'disease' bit. Don't know if it's the hypocrisy, or just wanting to get a better grip on it. I know one thing though, I want and love hearing what you folk all think about it though. It helps me look at it in a different way, othern than my own. I just know that people look at someone with the disease of cancer and heckuva lot different than that disease of addiction. Like if I told my family or friends that, they'd probably scoff or laugh. But I will print this off for future reference and it's a good read for people that have a tough time understanding.
Tccme,
Good Q, "I" think the difference between the two is zero. What I was trying to say earlier is that one phrasing will cause some of us to seek assistance sooner than if it were called the other. There are people that will not seek help for a "chemical dependence" but will seek help for a "disease". Thus my reasoning behind calling it a ploy by the med comm. A "good" ploy or plan, whatever it takes kind of attitude that whatever we can do to make it easier for the addict to seek help is justifiable. Also the FDA will not allow pharmaceutical companies to develop medicines for a "problem" or a "chemical Dependece", only diseases. That's a BIG one.
I had a corrneal transplant yesterday, so I'm a little grouchy:):)
Good Q, "I" think the difference between the two is zero. What I was trying to say earlier is that one phrasing will cause some of us to seek assistance sooner than if it were called the other. There are people that will not seek help for a "chemical dependence" but will seek help for a "disease". Thus my reasoning behind calling it a ploy by the med comm. A "good" ploy or plan, whatever it takes kind of attitude that whatever we can do to make it easier for the addict to seek help is justifiable. Also the FDA will not allow pharmaceutical companies to develop medicines for a "problem" or a "chemical Dependece", only diseases. That's a BIG one.
I had a corrneal transplant yesterday, so I'm a little grouchy:):)
That's awesome Teresa, just awesome. You are a saint.
God Bless you.
God Bless you.
This is an informative link for a discussion of addiction as a brain disease, taken from the home page of this site:
http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.o...article151.html
Here is an excerpt:
"We now know in great detail the brain mechanisms through which drugs acutely modify mood, memory, perception, and emotional states.
Using drugs repeatedly over time changes brain structure and function in fundamental and long-lasting ways that can persist long after the individual stops using them. Addiction comes about through an array of neuro-adaptive changes and the lying down and strengthening of new memory connections in various circuits in the brain.
The Highjacked Brain
We do not yet know all the relevant mechanisms, but the evidence suggests that those long-lasting brain changes are responsible for the distortions of cognitive and emotional functioning that characterize addicts, particularly including the compulsion to use drugs that is the essence of addiction.
It is as if drugs have highjacked the brains natural motivational control circuits, resulting in drug use becoming the sole, or at least the top, motivational priority for the individual.
Thus, the majority of the biomedical community now considers addiction, in its essence, to be a brain disease:
This brain-based view of addiction has generated substantial controversy, particularly among people who seem able to think only in polarized ways.
Many people erroneously still believe that biological and behavioral explanations are alternative or competing ways to understand phenomena, when in fact they are complementary and integrative. Modern science has taught that it is much too simplistic to set biology in opposition to behavior or to pit willpower against brain chemistry.
Addiction involves inseparable biological and behavioral components. It is the quintessential bio-behavioral disorder."
http://www.addictionrecoveryguide.o...article151.html
Here is an excerpt:
"We now know in great detail the brain mechanisms through which drugs acutely modify mood, memory, perception, and emotional states.
Using drugs repeatedly over time changes brain structure and function in fundamental and long-lasting ways that can persist long after the individual stops using them. Addiction comes about through an array of neuro-adaptive changes and the lying down and strengthening of new memory connections in various circuits in the brain.
The Highjacked Brain
We do not yet know all the relevant mechanisms, but the evidence suggests that those long-lasting brain changes are responsible for the distortions of cognitive and emotional functioning that characterize addicts, particularly including the compulsion to use drugs that is the essence of addiction.
It is as if drugs have highjacked the brains natural motivational control circuits, resulting in drug use becoming the sole, or at least the top, motivational priority for the individual.
Thus, the majority of the biomedical community now considers addiction, in its essence, to be a brain disease:
This brain-based view of addiction has generated substantial controversy, particularly among people who seem able to think only in polarized ways.
Many people erroneously still believe that biological and behavioral explanations are alternative or competing ways to understand phenomena, when in fact they are complementary and integrative. Modern science has taught that it is much too simplistic to set biology in opposition to behavior or to pit willpower against brain chemistry.
Addiction involves inseparable biological and behavioral components. It is the quintessential bio-behavioral disorder."
These are the kinds of discussions that should be of the majority on the board. Good on you Chris. I've been following you since the day you joined. I follow all my fellow Canucks and I must say you are making leaps and bounds brother. If only all posts can be started like this. I'll live vicariously through you because, unfortunately, I have the maturity level of an infant chimpanzee. Good post and oxy, that's the best name I've ever seen on this site. You made me laugh.
I'm happy for you Chris, you'll have your serenity, I'm sure of it. You're probably a great Dad to that little girl of yours.
Chris, sorry to get of topic, forget it, I'm starting a new post.
I'm happy for you Chris, you'll have your serenity, I'm sure of it. You're probably a great Dad to that little girl of yours.
Chris, sorry to get of topic, forget it, I'm starting a new post.
Thanks None4Me. That is great. Thank you very much for taking the time to post that. It is very greatly appreciated.
All this is great. I am so happy I reached out and posted this, you folks have no idea how much this means to me.
All this is great. I am so happy I reached out and posted this, you folks have no idea how much this means to me.
Thanks flipper......you honestly made me cry. Am crying as I type this. They're good tears though. It means a lot to me. Everyone needs to hear stuff like that every now and again. Unfortunately I am not there yet, but I am working at it. Just "thanks" flipper, thanks. To me saying 'thanks' is not enough, but am pretty emotional right now and just know you touched my heart. Thank you.
PS - when I get it together a bit more, then I will tease you about you being a Leaf fan. hahaha Teasing you my friend....
PS - when I get it together a bit more, then I will tease you about you being a Leaf fan. hahaha Teasing you my friend....
Now, my follow up question is this, if there is a difference in chemically dependent and and addict. Is it easier for the chemically dependent person to become clean?
For me, I am the addict as I never used pain pills for pain. I am just curious.
Regards,
Tom
For me, I am the addict as I never used pain pills for pain. I am just curious.
Regards,
Tom
Hey I was gonna say the exact same thing to you but I refrained. I was going to say that I follow all my fellow Canucks so I can make fun of their pathetic hockey teams. Jovo rocked last night, and he only gave away 4 passes. I'm coming to Vancouver next week, I'm hopefully going to check out a game. Don't even get me started on Brookbank that bloody bushleaguer.
Honestly Chris, I mean everything I say. I'm sure you notice a difference. You're a good egg my man.
Honestly Chris, I mean everything I say. I'm sure you notice a difference. You're a good egg my man.
You're good peeps too flipper........thank you for everything.
Now just letting you know that there's still room on our bandwagon if you want to jump on, since God only knows where your team is gonna take you (probably places darker than any addiction ever will - lol) And isn't it better to cheer for a WINNING team going places??? (oh God, here come out the stats - yeah yeah I know) But really, what should I expect when your favourite player is Tie Domi. lol
K, guess we shouldn't turn this into a hockey bashing thread......we had a good thing going. lol Later man, have a good trip to BC.
Now just letting you know that there's still room on our bandwagon if you want to jump on, since God only knows where your team is gonna take you (probably places darker than any addiction ever will - lol) And isn't it better to cheer for a WINNING team going places??? (oh God, here come out the stats - yeah yeah I know) But really, what should I expect when your favourite player is Tie Domi. lol
K, guess we shouldn't turn this into a hockey bashing thread......we had a good thing going. lol Later man, have a good trip to BC.
as far as chemical dependance v. addiction.... well I think the term is physical dependance not chemical dependance.... for people that are on meds for chronic pain and their bodies get phyically dependant that they can not just quit without their body going though some kind of a w/d and those that are in addiction that involves the psychological w/d.... that involved the mental stuff.... the one that is only physically dependant only took the meds for the pain and not for 'high'.. not for the wrong reason... it may not be sooo easy to stop even for the physically dependant person but it isnt the same.... not by a long shot.... the physically dependant person still get the tolerance that we get which is what usually leads them to change meds thus quiting what they are on....
hope this makes sense...
teresa
hope this makes sense...
teresa
You had me laughing hard. I concur. Back to your topic.
That makes sense T, Its kinda what I assumed. I know there was no way for these people to go off pills without some sort of withdrawel, but it was the mental part I was curious about. I know someone that recently did this, he was taking Percocets for about 6 months and when his pain was gone, so were the pills. I was thinking, that was too easy.
Regards,
Tom
Regards,
Tom
K, but Teresa.......I got addcited to pain meds, cuz I needed it for chronic pain (legitimately), but then started abusing them, then started taking when not in pain. I'm still an addict. So how does that fit in the whole disease, chemical, physical dependency bit? Ar am I just WAY off here? Wouldn't be the first time......
ok... chris... the first example that tom used was for someone that was only taking for the legit pain... see the physical w/d symptom comes only from the body getting used to the pills... only.. has really very little to do with our mental brains wanting to take them.... so once our physical w/d is over if we were only taking for legit pain and not to get high them we are done.. only physically tolerant or physically dependant if you will.... but..
when you started taking to feel good mentally... you crossed that line into addiction.. same thing happened to me... I didnt know when I did.. or why... sceince has yet to figure out why some do and some dont ... why the person can use only on the weekends and never be addicted to the point of 'must have and will do anything to get it' point.. and so do.... like the social drinker.. why they stay social drinkers and some dont they become alcoholics..... but there seems to be an invisible switch if you will that gets flipped in some people ... maybe some people dont even have a switch at all.... I think that the people that have the switch are those of use the are genetically predisposed and that switch is just waiting to get flipped.... and the ones that done have a 'switch' well they create there own with continues use so it is not as easy for them to become addicted but it happens.. sorry off the topic....lol..
any way hope that answered your question...no one knows why ... but when we start taking for other reasons... like to have energy or to feel better about our selves then we are in trouble.... then the dependance becomes mental not just physical....
teresa
when you started taking to feel good mentally... you crossed that line into addiction.. same thing happened to me... I didnt know when I did.. or why... sceince has yet to figure out why some do and some dont ... why the person can use only on the weekends and never be addicted to the point of 'must have and will do anything to get it' point.. and so do.... like the social drinker.. why they stay social drinkers and some dont they become alcoholics..... but there seems to be an invisible switch if you will that gets flipped in some people ... maybe some people dont even have a switch at all.... I think that the people that have the switch are those of use the are genetically predisposed and that switch is just waiting to get flipped.... and the ones that done have a 'switch' well they create there own with continues use so it is not as easy for them to become addicted but it happens.. sorry off the topic....lol..
any way hope that answered your question...no one knows why ... but when we start taking for other reasons... like to have energy or to feel better about our selves then we are in trouble.... then the dependance becomes mental not just physical....
teresa
